A sneak peak of .. Leavu3

So it's the fact that it's a 3rd party program that changes the graphical representation of data? Is that correct?

 

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Everyone that links up with you gets to see what your radar sees whilst you see all of their radars info creating a screen of contacts you wouldn't normally see. This screen is the export of your radar combined with the data of all your buddies, therefore similar to your radar screen using helios only 360deg, plus everybody elses radar.

Im aware of how it works. I'm still in disagreement that graphical representation of legally obtained, shared data is "cheating"

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Im aware of how it works. I'm still in disagreement that graphical representation of legally obtained, shared data is "cheating"

 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Because you are using external sources not part of the sim to make your aircraft and sensors better than everybody elses. How is this fact lost on you.

How does it "make my aircraft better"?

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Sensors are no better either. They don't get any enhancements....

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Beeroshima is trolling you Frostie.

Everyone that links up with you gets to see what your radar sees whilst you see all of their radars info creating a screen of contacts you wouldn't normally see. This screen is the export of your radar combined with the data of all your buddies, therefore similar to your radar screen using helios only 360deg, plus everybody elses radar.

Almost right - Only locked targets are shared. Simply a matter of prioritizing what information goes over the rather bandwidth limited dlink systems of the era. Also clutter wise. In today's planes I expect this limitation would not be there - but I did it also for the sake of balance.

Except single player where the game decides to share everything - but since that's single player I don't think that particular case merits any discussion.

However I think we are in agreement that it's up to the community and admins of each particular server and event to decide what is considered a cheat or not in their environment. All such wishes will naturally be respected at least by our members.

Did a quick write up on some of the specific reasons why I have a problem with this mod in a MP environment.

Having read your replies here I doubt I will be swaying your opinion on this. People don't always agree, in this case you and I don't... this is life. I'm not going to resort to some of the personal attacks I've seen taking place on the DCS forum simply because I don't believe it will lead to a constructive conversation

 

 

Before I start, once again, listing the specific issues I have with this mod I will try to give you some perspective so you better understand why I have taken the position I have. *I believe utilizing information that is not provided by the aircraft in DCS or present in real life is cheating.*

 

 

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***Specifics:***

 

(For my sanity many points will be copy & pasted with minimal editing)

 

*Hopefully this formatting is reasonable, may have to update it if not*

 

 

 

**A-10A**

 

- No navigational display is present in this aircraft. The only navigational aids present are HUD prompts and the horizontal situation indicator. This mod provides visual representations of way points via the "HSD" mode.

 

- This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

 

 

 

**SU-25 / 25T**

 

- No navigational display is present in this aircraft. The only navigational aids present are HUD prompts and the horizontal situation indicator. This mod provides visual representations of way points via the "HSD" mode.

 

- These aircraft are equipped with the [sPO-15](http://www.blackknightssquadron.com/wp-content/uploads/RWR.jpg). The SPO-15 provides "generalized" threat bearing information for the forward 180^o of the aircraft along with a very "rough" 6'oclock threat bearing. Threat descriptions are extremely simple, describing an emitting radar as "airborne", "long range", "medium range", "short range", "early warning", or "AWACs". The SPO-15 can only indicate the signal strength for the primary threat. This mod provides a far more capable radar warning receiver via the "RWR" mode, more akin to the AN/ALR-56C. This mod provides detailed 360^o threat bearing information along with the signal strength for all detected emitters. "RWR" mode also provides far more detailed threat information including specific aircraft types and ground base radar types.

 

- This aircraft does not provide fuel flow information, this information is provided via "SMS" mode.

 

- This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

 

 

 

**SU-27 / 33**

 

- These aircraft are equipped with the [sPO-15](http://www.blackknightssquadron.com/wp-content/uploads/RWR.jpg). The SPO-15 provides "generalized" threat bearing information for the forward 180^o of the aircraft along with a very "rough" 6'oclock threat bearing. Threat descriptions are extremely simple, describing an emitting radar as "airborne", "long range", "medium range", "short range", "early warning", or "AWACs". The SPO-15 can only indicate the signal strength for the primary threat. This mod provides a far more capable radar warning receiver via the "RWR" mode, more akin to the AN/ALR-56C. This mod provides detailed 360^o threat bearing information along with the signal strength for all detected emitters. "RWR" mode also provides far more detailed threat information including specific aircraft types and ground base radar types.

 

- These aircraft are equipped with the N-001 radar along with the OLS-27 IRST sensor, well capable neither of these sensors are capable of identifying the type of aircraft detected. This mod, via "FCR" mode, provides the type of aircraft being targeted.

 

- These aircraft do not provide fuel flow information, this information is provided via "SMS" mode.

 

- *Well these aircraft are equipped with a datalink it is currently inoperable between friendly player controlled aircraft.*

 

 

 

**MIG-29 Variants**

 

- No navigational display is present in these aircraft. The only navigational aids present are HUD prompts and the horizontal situation indicator. This mod provides visual representations of way points via the "HSD" mode.

 

- These aircraft are equipped with the [sPO-15](http://www.blackknightssquadron.com/wp-content/uploads/RWR.jpg). The SPO-15 provides "generalized" threat bearing information for the forward 180^o of the aircraft along with a very "rough" 6'oclock threat bearing. Threat descriptions are extremely simple, describing an emitting radar as "airborne", "long range", "medium range", "short range", "early warning", or "AWACs". The SPO-15 can only indicate the signal strength for the primary threat. This mod provides a far more capable radar warning receiver via the "RWR" mode, more akin to the AN/ALR-56C. This mod provides detailed 360^o threat bearing information along with the signal strength for all detected emitters. "RWR" mode also provides far more detailed threat information including specific aircraft types and ground base radar types.

 

- These aircraft are equipped with the N-019 / N-019M radars along with the KOLS IRST sensor, well capable neither of these sensors are capable of identifying the type of aircraft being targeted. This mod, via "FCR" mode, provides the type of aircraft being targeted.

 

- These aircraft do not provide fuel flow information, this information is provided via "SMS" mode.

 

- This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

 

 

 

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>**I'm still not seeing any specifics.**

 

Hopefully the above meets your criteria.

 

 

 

>**...which I wouldn't call an advantage at all.**

 

As I'm sure you have read at this point many people disagree with you, but that is what makes opinions great... we can all have our own.

 

 

 

>**So the Flanker pilot would know there is an F-15 locking them on their radar to the east, instead of what we currently have which is "a fighter aircraft is locking me from the east". You really think that's a substantial advantage... The RWR for example, doesn't show you anything you don't already know.**

 

Ignoring the egregious contradiction within the above quote; yes, I believe the additional information provided by this mod's RWR provides a substantial advantage in many cases. I believe knowing the type of enemy you are facing is extremely important, it allows you to better plan the actions you will take... and in some cases you can even determine if the detected emitter is friend of foe.

 

 

 

>**Let me ask you this. Where do you think this mod gets the information it displays from? The server or the client?**

 

The information this mod uses is obtained from the client and via the mod's integrated DLink. However, that does not change the fact some of the information that can be obtained from the client and DLink is not actively displayed via the equipment in the aircraft the player is using at the time.

 

 

 

>**...warranting a ban on the mod and probably the export.lua file?"**

 

What people do on their own servers and single player sessions is their business, but as I have said above... I believe this mod provides an unfair and unrealistic advantage under many circumstances. I am of the opinion that the thread should be locked and hidden until ED has had the opportunity to modify the game to allow server administrators to prevent its use. Perhaps in the long run ED could tailor what data is exported so it is more specific to the aircraft in use along with developing and implementing proper [working] data links within the game.

F-15C have datalink IRL since mid 80's.

Read this, before posting anything about "cheats" etc...

The Wonders of Link 16 For Less: MIDS-LVTs

F-15 FIGHTER DATA LINK (FDL)

[ame=https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1235/MR1235.chap9.pdf]Tactical Datalinks[/ame]

Why ED don't make it available for us? This is a rhetorical question. :music_whistling:

F-15C have datalink IRL since mid 80's.

 

Read this, before posting anything about "cheats" etc...

 

The Wonders of Link 16 For Less: MIDS-LVTs

F-15 FIGHTER DATA LINK (FDL)

 

Tactical Datalinks

 

Why ED don't make it available for us? This is a rhetorical question. :music_whistling:

Looking through the links you provided there, operational deployment was ~ early 2000s... am I reading that right? We can assume the F15c we have modeled in game is ~ mid 90s given the presence of the AIM-120C but the lack of the of AIM-9X. Following that train of thought, am I right in coming to the conclusion an operational data link would not have been integrated into the F15c modeled in DCS?

Did a quick right up on some of the specific reasons why I have a problem with this mod in a MP environment.

 

 

 

Your Information about LEAVU is absolutely wrong , I guarantee that you didnt even try it and you only saw the demonstration which was done in a Single player mode where LEAVU only work as the F10 map . In Mp its totally different from what you have described

The guys who opposing this mod have no clue what they are talking about neither they did even try the mod them self to see what it is,Or even read what the creator of the mod said for 10 times their utmost information about it is the demonstration video that was posted in the first place in a Single player mode just to demonstrate it to the public, where everything on the F10 map was not restricted and was also available in leavu as long as you dont have it restricted .

you ask the guy for evidence and instead of trying the mod himself ,No he post a SP video of LEAVU . The creator of the MOD himself repeated himself over and over again That in MP Leavu cant freaking see what your own ship cant see. It cannot even see what your wingman see unless he locks that target ONLY. if the Server has F10 map available with targets uncovered to everyone Leavu will just export the data to see it just like you open the F10 map . if its restricted then LEAVU becomes the exact same screen as your own ship Radar.

I will give an example, without Leavu, If my own ship radar has detected a bandit and your switch to TWS , you get info on the bandit like altitude and heading . So i pass that info to my wing and i steer him to the direction , BOOM he see the Bandit on the radar also . That took me maybe 5 seconds maybe little bit more to pass the info Vocally on TS then another 5 secs to my wing to search and acquire ( depends on the wingman skills ) . Now with Leavu , If i see that Bandit , he still doesnt see it even with LEAVU .if i lock the Bandit then he will only see the symbology of the bandit and where is he in relative to his own ship but he still cant acquire it ( Its not magic ) he still needs to search and look for the target .if he cant use his own ship radar to search and acquire the bandit then its useless, well my wing man then steers toward that direction and he acquire the bandit.

So now what did Leavu do . it reduced maybe the amount of time needed for me to pass the info by creating more Situation awareness . Something that is real pilot do, It saved me the time of throwing more words in the COMM like check bandit , bearing XXX for XX miles at 10000. If he lacks the skill as a pilot to Use his Radar then LEAVU cant do anything for him its really not MAGIC, It will not Lock the Bandit for him or anything. Now can i see something the server is Restricting, Like bandits that are not available on my radar screen, the answer is NO you cannot, Does it create better situation awareness? , Yes it does,

But again that is what we suppose to do as a pilot through communication such as TS or any other MOD, Im sure if TS was something just coming out new , i would be here trying to convince you how Radio communication are something good for a pilot while the guys who oppose will be like no this is cheat. If you want to make it hard for you and the minimum Situation awareness just to challenge yourself and prove that you are an ACE pilot , Ok i respect that you are really skilled but if i want to use what ever available to improve the communication with out adding any extra ability and underline that ( no extra ability ) so its fine. i dont tell you dont communicate with you buddies and use only chatter keyboard. if you want to fly harder to improve your self as a pilot be my guest but dont tell me i also have to fly like you. Bottom line LEAVU only improve SA and dont see what you can see in GAME.

Your Information about LEAVU is absolutely wrong , I guarantee that you didnt even try it and you only saw the demonstration which was done in a Single player mode where LEAVU only work as the F10 map . In Mp its totally different from what you have described

You've come to an interesting conclusion given I have been using it for a few days setup as a remote display on my old laptop running lubuntu.

Would you mind expanding upon what information is "absolutely wrong"?

You've come to an interesting conclusion given I have been using it for a few days setup as a remote display on my old laptop running lubuntu.

 

Would you mind expanding upon what information is "absolutely wrong"?

You said and im Quoting you:- " HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are detected by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group. " End Quote

Does it really do that or only locked targets . Have you tried it in multiplayer ?? or single player because in multiplayer it will never do that .

Can you read comment # 265 it explain how it works In MP

You said and im Quoting you:- " HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are detected by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group. " End Quote

 

 

Does it really do that or only locked targets . Have you tried it in multiplayer ?? or single player because in multiplayer it will never do that .

Apologies for the poor description of the information being shared, but that doesn't change the core fact that information is being shared between aircraft that are not capable of doing that in game nor in real life.

For the sake of the record I will correct that inaccuracy.

This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

Do you agree that is a more accurate description of the information exchanged by this mod?

Apologies for the poor description of the information being shared, but that doesn't change the core fact that information is being shared between aircraft that are not capable of doing that in game nor in real life.

 

 

For the sake of the record I will correct that inaccuracy.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you agree that is a more accurate description of the information exchanged by this mod?

Quote:

This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

No In MP it only share Targets that are locked by your own ship radar only , NO awacs or GCI shared radar at all , only what your own ship locks . even if there are awacs present it will not share that or even see it in MP . in SP only it will happen. now is this something available for the F15 time frame that we have in game i have no idea to be honest ,.

Quote:

This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

 

 

No In MP it only share Targets that are locked by your own ship radar only , NO awacs or GCI shared radar at all , only what your own ship locks . even if there are awacs present it will not share that or even see it in MP . in SP only it will happen. now is this something available for the F15 time frame that we have in game i have no idea to be honest ,.

That is exactly what I have described there. To quote it again for the sake of clarity:

This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.

This aircraft is not equipped with a data link. This mod provides a near real time data link via "HSD" mode. "HSD" mode provides detailed locations for friendlies within your DLink group. "HSD" mode is also capable of sharing location information for friendly and hostile aircraft outside of your DLink group so long as they are locked by a radar, IRST sensor, or "ground observation" sensor within your DLink group.:

Ya that is what it does but no ground observation if you mean by this GCI

Ya that is what it does in MP

Ok, so now that we are both on the same page in regard to functionality... can we both agree there are some serious issues when it come to this mod in a multiplayer environment?

Ok, so now that we are both on the same page in regard to functionality... can we both agree there are some serious issues when it come to this mod in a multiplayer environment?

To be honest and this is what i really think, forget the game. is that people are really giving it a huge hype when its not . If it improves situation awareness isn't something that is part of simulation and part of real life pilot.

if its serious issue or not everyone will have a different point of view regarding that but its not Cheating as poeple describe it . is it part of the F15 or not i can not confirm but its not cheating its a mean of communication visually instead of vocally .

Ya that is what it does but no ground observation if you mean by this GCI

Missed your edit, but no that is not what I meant by "Ground Observation" sensor. I was referring to the SU-25T's Shkval, didn't have the opportunity to test the A-10a when it comes to lock a target with a maverick though... so can't comment on that atm.

To be honest and this is what i really think, forget the game. is that people are really giving it a huge hype when its not . If it improves situation awareness isn't something that is part of simulation and part of real life pilot.

 

if its serious issue or not everyone will have a different point of view regarding that but its not Cheating as poeple describe it . is it part of the F15 or not i can not confirm but its not cheating its a mean of communication visually instead of vocally .

Not sure if I'm just really tired... but I'm not really following what you're trying to say here.

Missed your edit, but no that is not what I meant by "Ground Observation" sensor. I was referring to the SU-25T's Shkval, didn't have the opportunity to test the A-10a when it comes to lock a target with a maverick though... so can't comment on that atm.

No this one i also dont know since i only used it with FC3 .

Something I just noticed I forgot, but when you lock something with the Shkval and enter "FCR" mode with the mod... it will list what type of ground vehicle you have locked, will work for helis as well... haven't tested this on a fixed wing aircraft, but I think its reasonable to assume it will identify it as well.

Not sure if I'm just really tired... but I'm not really following what you're trying to say here.

what i mean . we all use vocal communication in the MP environment to improve our SA. we let people have LOTATC so they can give more SA, So if we can improve our SA through another mean that is better wouldn't that be part of the simulation experience such as other way of improving SA be it TS or anything. as long as it doesnt kill the bandit for me or lock it for me, Also my wing man still has to have the skill of using the radar to search for the bandit and lock him up himself. even if he sees that on the DLINK

Just like when i take the role of GCI , i tell you check bearing 200 at 40 miles for 15000 . i gave you an exact location of the bandit and you know there are bandit there ,BUT you still have to lock it your own and you still need the skills to use the radar. your aircarft doesnt see the bandit and lock it. you just know that there is a bandit there.

Anyway , i love this game and i respect all DCS community and for that i stopped using it till all this is resolved out of respect to the server rules and community.