F-14 as a pilot: A change in the total control we are used to in the F-15

RIOs aren't huey gunners. They will operate the most frightening aa radar-missile combo in the whole of DCS so poor analogy.

I can see that jester will be godsend in single player but come on... join mp and have an ai managing the whole of radar target acquisition and target engagement for you? Arcade as hell...

First of all, you are making broad assumption that ED manages to develop a AI that is so superior that it doesn't do common mistakes like not spot a target that would be for human a very obvious.

We can use a neural network modeling to develop better AI that can beat humans in 1vs1 in DOTA 2 or a dictionary TV shows etc like IBM Watson.

But, flying a aircraft ain't such thing and then being a WSO. Of course if ED just does like 90's games, cheat because computer knows all the places and units where they are moving.

Then you are making assumptions than human pilots with human WSO are not better ones than a AI.

We are eventually in the exactly same situation that why we are still putting a meatsuit to aircrafts, as computer would be so much faster and more "efficient" and wouldn't care about G-forces.

[YOUTUBE]ESgel2rS-BE

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The worst situation ain't that AI is over powered, it is that the AI is dumb so you get frustrated when it can't do its job that rookie WSO/Pilot would do!

So sure, it will be nice to fly as a crew humans vs humans, but random people flying with each others? Yeah.... Just like with any other game that is even far simpler than this!

i want to guide it back to the point that it's not about jester competence. whether it's better or worse than the human rio is immaterial because that will always be a sliding scale -- there's always going to be that flub who is worse than the dumbest ai, and there's also always going to be some hotshot with immaculate micro who is seemingly clairvoyant.

but regardless if the gib is mentally handicapped or if he's the god in back, it's the fact that both are humans that brings value to the fight. if you want to compete in couples skating, don't bring a dutch wife -- even if you skate well, you're making a mockery of the premise.

i think it's important to at least be able to put a restriction on it for servers seeking to enforce this principle.

tangentially related, this is a real life issue being faced by militaries as drones are becoming increasingly prevalent -- the question what is the value of war if it ends up all being fought by robotic proxies, isolated from humans -- and therefore isolated from the weightiest consequences. it's not an issue made up for this game "just to be elitist".

I have to propose that the word "arcade" be banned from all flight sim forums from now on. You might as well place the word "rfnrllrf" there. The AI is a RIO. There is no conceptual difference between it and a human player.

 

Now of course we don't know exactly how JESTER will work, but that goes both ways - you can't be listing how it will negatively impact online (or how you think it will do this) because you don't know.

 

In any case, it's not going to be arcade. To be frank, even saying that is kind of ridiculous. Far more "arcade" would be unqualified human RIO's jumping into back seats on a whim.

 

 

This is why JESTER is a thing. It's not there to make an "arcade" game.

 

 

 

Then I guess the AI is doing it's job?

Having an ai in the back plowing through the nuances of long range radar operation and ECCM operation while at the same time prioritizing targets engaging them and working your ECM and countermeasures which is a normal for single player sounds and is arcade for multi player.

Besides I love the challenge of flying against humans that's why I don't play in servers that populate the game with needless ai planes.

I don't care if a novice decides to play RIO. Learning is part of the journey. Remember?

I care if someone offloads functions to an ai that are gameplay essential, but then again we have to wait and see because we don't know have it will be implemented by heatblur.

it violates the essence of player versus player. the crew is part and parcel of the f-14 -- it's a 2 person aircraft and it should work both ways -- if you win, you win as a crew, and if you lose, you lose as a crew.

say you chose to play a team deathmatch game and one team brings 4 people and you instead bring yourself and 3 bots, win or lose that is robbing the other team of a proper fight!

 

do note that my suggestion is that it be a serverside option, so you can have your solo experience on servers that do not have an emphasis on pvp.

Either way you look at it, the workload will be split. You'll have the guy in the front "Doing some of that pilot sh!t", While the RIO is working the radar. A human is likely ultimately going to be better simply to being able to issue commands to in a more immediate nature, and the AI is still going to be limited at BVR to the direction the plane is pointed. No way will an AI RIO be some massive advantage. Even now the AI only reacts to either what it receives by sensors or what has line of sight with the canopy/cockpit. The AI is complete child's play to compete against, because they will never be as dynamic as a person.

Having an ai in the back plowing through the nuances of long range radar operation and ECCM operation while at the same time prioritizing targets engaging them and working your ECM and countermeasures which is a normal for single player sounds and is arcade for multi player.

How? If the AI acts like a player, how is that a negative? How is it more arcade than a clueless RIO if the AI is programmed to act like an actual RIO (and take things into account like IFF, presence of allies, RoE, etc). It's hypothetical at this point for sure, but people are acting like they already know every detail of the AI performance.

Besides I love the challenge of flying against humans that's why I don't play in servers that populate the game with needless ai planes.

Well again, if the AI acts like a player, you get that challenge all the time. With the bonus of not losing it because your server population isn't full.

I don't care if a novice decides to play RIO. Learning is part of the journey. Remember?

It's not about skill level necessarily. The question is what makes the AI RIO so different that it "ruins" online? Especially given cooperation between players isn't even a given. Online is full of solo flights, team killers, etc. AI RIO doesn't even seem like it should be a blip on the radar compared to those other issues.

I care if someone offloads functions to an ai that are gameplay essential

That is the point of the real RIO in the real aircraft. The pilot offloads work to someone else to concentrate on flying. If you want a simulation, you want the pilot to be offloading the work.

Either way you look at it, the workload will be split. You'll have the guy in the front "Doing some of that pilot sh!t", While the RIO is working the radar. A human is likely ultimately going to be better simply to being able to issue commands to in a more immediate nature, and the AI is still going to be limited at BVR to the direction the plane is pointed. No way will an AI RIO be some massive advantage. Even now the AI only reacts to either what it receives by sensors or what has line of sight with the canopy/cockpit. The AI is complete child's play to compete against, because they will never be as dynamic as a person.

no, you're missing the point. please don't keep dragging this into a competency issue. it's not. it's about being able to have control over content. it's no different than being able to choose not to place ai units in the mission.

A good back seater is worth his weight in gold, at night low over the North Sea in shity weather you wouldn't want to be without him.

A bad back seater is 300kg of fuel you could have been carrying.

How this translates to DCS is gonna be really interesting. On the 16AGR we already have a notional crewing for the F14 from when it was gonna be out Q4 of 2016. We had a pretty good split of front and back seat volunteers.

From experience without a set of standard operating procedures, which we dont have, operating well as a crew will be tricky but still great fun as long as you dont get too wound up when it goes wrong.

Personally I am really looking forward to it operating with a crew is great fun. While jester may be just like the AI with perfect SA, if that proves the case I see no problem with turning him off for multiplayer. Just go to the TS/ Discord and I am sure you can find a Pilot or Rio. You could always swap after each death.

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Hey guys, here are my 2 cents:

I think in MP this comes down to the old question "Is DCS a simulater or a game?"

Which leads to the next question "Do we need to balance the Turkey and Jester in MP?"

IMHO every server has to answer both questions for themselves. They define the experience that will be created on that particular server.

I would like to remind the "only player vs. player is the real deal"-faction that there are virtual pilots here that will need Jester because the weekly timeframe to fly online sorties is so damn tight and depends on work and family that there is simply no way you can coordinate flying with friends and rotate as suggested here. I speak for myself here. Honestly i have no idea if i will be out of the office today at 7:30 pm or 9 pm.

That leads to the next point: For me Jester will be absolutely necessary to have a realistic experience flying the turkey while i learn the module in SP. There i can dictate timeframe and time of flying. Everything else would be impossible for me and switching between back and front seat would kill the experience because thar is totally unrealistic. That's i am so thankful heatblur put's the time into Jester.

Without Jester the module would get highly unattractive to every virtual pilot who is not able to fly in an organized community.

In the end these communities can always limited there Servers tho player only and everyone will be happy i think and they all lived happily ever after…

But all of that is just my highly personal perception of that topic

Anyone predicting how the tears will flow is guessing :)

It is up to the server operators, they are the ones who will decide.

Anyone predicting how the tears will flow is guessing :)

 

It is up to the server operators, they are the ones who will decide.

The tears will flow in rivers and into the sea from what I am reading. :D

4 pages of comments and only 2 people suggested the very logical assumption of finding someone and swapping seats after each sortie or death. I see loads of guys implying they want to "load someone up in the back" to do the radar thingy while they are solely in the pilot seat. How do you think it will play out?

Anyway I don't doubt the product will be fantastic and jester definitely won't be the all knowing crappy ED ai but that is not the point.

People are fallible. Depending on your skill you can use their mistakes or lack of knowledge to your advantage. A helper ai isn't.

It has perfect knowledge of systems and procedures, that takes away from the whole feeling. A crew has to cooperate and fill each other's deficiencies. Jester will be a crouch supporting your incomplete knowledge. Perfect for sp, game breaking for mp. At least for those of us who like the challenge.

Maybe heatblur will include customization parameters with jester so that mission makers can have control over its ability so we can have the best of all worlds. We have to wait and see I guess.

"game breaking for mp" - funny expression to use for something you don't know yet. Lt's wait and see how Jester turns out.

For me, flying with a random guy or switching between front and back seats will be "game breaking".

...Jester will be absolutely necessary to have a realistic experience flying the turkey while i learn the module in SP. There i can dictate timeframe and time of flying. Everything else would be impossible for me and switching between back and front seat would kill the experience because thar is totally unrealistic. That's i am so thankful heatblur put's the time into Jester.

And the converse point...the AI pilot in SP while I/we learn the RIO role.

anyone who uses the AIM-120 shouldn't have a problem with an AI in the rio seat, since the aim-120 is a mini AI controlled kamikaze fighter as soon as its active radar kicks in... and any missiles the f-14 are going to launch won't be as good as the aim-120, except maybe the aim-54, though we'll have to see...

I was thinking about what it will be like flying the Tomcat and not having total control over the radar/electronic side of the fight like we've (or at least me) become used to while flying the F-15.

 

I spend a lot of my focus pre-merge/WVR working the radar and the contacts; adjusting to this being done by the Jester AI or another player will be a big change.

 

Thinking out loud, will there be a function to switch seats with the AI, say 80NM out and going for a Phoenix kill?

 

Just wanted to see what others thought about this different role as a pilot. :joystick:

Just to remind people that this thread - the way I read it - is not about bashing the Jester AI, nor about should it be enforced on MP servers. The thread is about the last row on Ghostrider's post: how do you feel about the mindset change from a single-seat fighter to the first ever DCS multicrew fighter.

I also wondered a bit about the hints of salt and hostility that begins immediately after someone so much as mentions an AI, but that is besides the point.

So essentially we are talking about multicrew, crew resource management, internal and external communications as well as human factors in a fast paced combat scene (or otherwise). All this to me sounds like a unique gameplay challenge thus far in DCS even though we already have some multi crew aircraft. Multicrew, and the fact that you lend some control and/or authority away to the other crew member is an enourmous challenge, especially to those of us that are lone-wolf type pilots. And communication within the cockpit is key to efficiency and survival, because you require a quality group-SA to function at all properly.

The F-14 (and the F-4 in the future) will be much more than just another aircraft, or just another multiseat. Prior multiseat aircraft offer you the ability to have two players in the same aircraft - these ones require you to not only have two people there, but for them to act as a crew. So the F-14 brings with it more than just two different cockpits. It requires new skills and a new, social "control scheme" to get the other guy working with you.

Naturally these points don't work that well with the Jester AI, but if the AI even slightly mimics what a human does back there (so the AI is an operator in the backseat, instead of an all-seeing automatic sensor, which some of you seem to be suggesting), you need to communicate with it somehow, and despite it not being human, you still are. The aircraft isn't magically superior if you still fly it badly and catch the enemy missile, or if you don't keep the target within the radars gimbal limits. Having an AI that you have to work with may not be as interesting as having a human with you, but it sure is a change of pace from having an AI wingman, or no AI at all.

All I can summarise in the end is, multicrew (not just multiseat) is going to provide for a totally new gameplay challenge for anyone that has not already tried it

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

May aswell bash jester same way devs get bashed lol, Again none know until the modules is here i bet Cobra loves looking at all the guessing :D

Even limited multi-crew aircraft can be a challenge.

In battlefield 2 you had the opportunity to operate F-15E's and SU-34's that had a pilot and WSO..coordinating with someone who literally gave zero shits and would bail out at the earliest moment when it "wasn't fun anymore" or when they wanted to go it alone was so frustrating.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Jester AI on PvP, but I also don't think we should discourage any features that give a host more options for his server. I always advocate for more server options, whether it be tailoring the integrity check, allowing password protection for second seats (to prevent what RaceFuel85 described), and anything else that can be tailored to the target community.

everytime i go up against a tomcat w/ AI RIO I'ma Be Like:

Haha

I know the Tomcat pilot can launch all weapons, so that is comforting, I'm really curious how it will be interacting with Jester as to what is on radar, where they are, direction etc etc.

God I hope Heatblur has really good voice actors.

Haha

 

I know the Tomcat pilot can launch all weapons, so that is comforting, I'm really curious how it will be interacting with Jester as to what is on radar, where they are, direction etc etc.

 

God I hope Heatblur has really good voice actors.

I'd love it if they could, by some miracle, get Michael Ironside to do it.

Haha

 

I know the Tomcat pilot can launch all weapons, so that is comforting, I'm really curious how it will be interacting with Jester as to what is on radar, where they are, direction etc etc.

 

God I hope Heatblur has really good voice actors.

Speaking of Which..

if Needed I can Lend my Voice.... I can use American Profanity combined together with RIO Comms w/ Ease.

Somewhat related:

I have no doubt in my mind that Heatblur will do a good job with the AI RIO in the back seat.

Oh and, I'm absolutely down to be a full time RIO for somebody. I'm actually equally as interested in working from the back seat in the Tomcat as I am the front. Maybe I have a few loose screws...

... Maybe I have a few loose screws...

I can't for the life of me recall where, but i remember reading somewhere that RIO's were a bit bonkers (even by NAVY standards). Maybe something to do with the fact they by their own will got their lives in the hands of those good for nothing naval aviators :doh::D:music_whistling::thumbup:

I can't for the life of me recall where, but i remember reading somewhere that RIO's were a bit bonkers (even by NAVY standards). Maybe something to do with the fact they by their own will got their lives in the hands of those good for nothing naval aviators :doh::D:music_whistling::thumbup:

Whoever said that is a pilot. :D