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Will there ever be a SA342sim?


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Have you played DCS drunk? Try it XD

 

Yeah... I usually do better sober though. I meant for the AI, even the low level AI is too good and responsive IMO.

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Great to hear the Gazelle is still going to receive more improvements and new FM at some point :)

 

So i was not mistaken in recalling that you made a statement to that affect some time back, that the new FM your are developing for your current project would feed back into the Gazelle.

 

 

And i said this before; that is the best case scenario you can hope for as a customer...that is; that foundational improvements to the core achitecture get back ported to a product released a long time ago!

 

 

I can only encourage you to post a detailed blogpost about what technical/workflow improvements you guys came up with for your new "flight model 2.0". I am really curious about what goes into making a high fidelity FM for a helicopter, how to measure certain aspects and how to transfer that into efficient code.

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Yeah... I usually do better sober though. I meant for the AI, even the low level AI is too good and responsive IMO.

 

Sadly alot of the ED's core game focus seems to be developed on a reactionary basis, especially so if it affects their own modules.

 

 

So we can only hope that once people buy the Mi-24P and get shot down over and over again because they can no longer play the pure sniping game with Vikhrs they'll get frustrated by the super AI and it gets looked at.

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FM is broken

 

FM is broken at least since DCS 2.5. Before it seemed to be realistic.

I tried to contact Polychop several times but got no answer.

So I'd say there is no hope and ED should remove the module from the shop.

Я только понимаю Вокзал.

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Sadly alot of the ED's core game focus seems to be developed on a reactionary basis, especially so if it affects their own modules.

 

 

So we can only hope that once people buy the Mi-24P and get shot down over and over again because they can no longer play the pure sniping game with Vikhrs they'll get frustrated by the super AI and it gets looked at.

 

Well I'm sure we get Ataka's or Shturms for it.

 

Well. This may be my optimistic side talking, but from the little data I have on the mi24 AI includes a "spotting" mechanic, that should be more generalizeable to other AI units. As for responsiveness and "skill" its a tricky thing but it should be fairly easy to code that.

 

But they also need to have a variable of how likely some AI soldier is gonna shoot at a helo. I can assure you that most will want to go hide under something and not attract the attention of an Mi24. Same for most tank commanders, unless they know they can kill it before it finds them. A shilka on or other AA units on the other hand, of course they are gonna shoot you. But the first thing a TC or soldier is gonna think when they see an attack helo is "does he see me?" And then get on the horn for support. And then think about shooting at it.


Edited by Harlikwin

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3430616&postcount=1

 

Over 10 years ago, with DCS: Black Shark, ED startet the foundation of what became DCS: World today. One of it's core functionalities was FFB that enabled realistic force trim. For sticks without FFB they introduced the return to center method as a workaround. Logitech's G940 HOTAS got released that time, everyone was thinking that FFB will be more common. Unfortunately that didn't happen and not everyone has a FFB HOTAS. However, every other module (plane or helicopter) that was released since then, has proper FFB support, because it's still one of the best core functionalities of DCS. Every aircraft talks back to you via FFB, it's such a great feature for a sim. Basically, you have to get your mind around that, using a non-FFB stick in all DCS modules means you are using a workaround input method that ignores the feedback that the aircraft is constantly telling you.

Polychop did one big mistake as they started the gazelle project, they ignored or didn't know about FFB support and how deeply it is connected in DCS's input system (you can easily miss it by just using a standard HOTAS). It should have been one of their first steps, go and get a FFB stick before starting to develop something for DCS. It's even more important for a helicopter module! Every other dev team did this and every other module works well with it (i have all modules!). So right now the gazelle is the only module that is not using/supporting 100% of DCS's capabilities and that's why complains are raining since years. There should be a big, red marked announcement on the shop page: NO FFB SUPPORT! This would have prevented a lot of problems.

 

 

 

My hopes are still high that they have learned their lesson and started from scratch with their next project and the later update of the gazelle.


Edited by Alec Delorean

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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As someone who has worked on the Gazelle for many years as an engineer and has flown it IRL during test flights I can only say that the stick forces are incredibly light. You fly the Gazelle with fingertips. The only time there is any noticeable feedback is when operating in manual reversion with the hydraulics off (guarded selector switch on collective). There are some faults with the modules FM especially when flying beyond the normal operating envelope but otherwise it is pretty close. I've not flown a SAS equipped model but even without it's a very stable platform.

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As someone who has worked on the Gazelle for many years as an engineer and has flown it IRL during test flights I can only say that the stick forces are incredibly light. You fly the Gazelle with fingertips. The only time there is any noticeable feedback is when operating in manual reversion with the hydraulics off (guarded selector switch on collective). There are some faults with the modules FM especially when flying beyond the normal operating envelope but otherwise it is pretty close. I've not flown a SAS equipped model but even without it's a very stable platform.

Thanks for the input!

Chinook lover - Rober -

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I flew 2000 flight hours on the real aircraft as an a french army gazelle pilot , and ... i really don t like/recognize the FM ,the feelings on controls, stability , power ....are far far far away from the real one. i would be glad to help to build a better FM for this incredible aircraft. actually mine is at the end of my hangar ...

 

 

the left seat and the viviane systeme is really close to the real one ( wonderfull) . really i find very close to what we were doing with VIVIANE , even the picture of this flir is ... really really well done. the controls of the HOT missile is almost perfect . much better than the DX147 we used for training in the army !!!

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I flew 2000 flight hours on the real aircraft as an a french army gazelle pilot , and ... i really don t like/recognize the FM ,the feelings on controls, stability , power ....are far far far away from the real one. i would be glad to help to build a better FM for this incredible aircraft. actually mine is at the end of my hangar ...

 

Out of curiosity, how much of this FM "feel" is the issues with sim controls being nothing like helicopter controls? I think this is the big issue for actual pilots converting over to sims. I know my sim controls feel nothing like what they should in the "real" aircraft. So it can be hard at times to say if I move the actual stick like so I expect X, wheras in the sim I can't readily replicate that X easily. And if I can the "feel" is off from what I expect.

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One pilot says it's good.

One pilot says it's bad.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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One pilot says it's good.

One pilot says it's bad.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.

 

You will always have different oppinions about a feeling of a flightmodel. Many years ago a pilot told me that the MS Flightsim 2003 (Robinson)was good....:lol:

 

Some pilots tend to think they have to take the limitations of the Home PC equipment into consideration. But that is just an assumption. The negative feedback to the Gazelle's FM is irrelevant to the equipment you use.

 

I don't go into details, as it was written enough about it. Polychop wants to improve it. We will see. I hope they succeed.

 

Fox

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PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

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Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. One is good for training, the other caused a ''Coming to Jesus'' moment.

 

I can only assume the transition is equally jarring when you pass from a real aircraft to what is usually a short desktop mounted stick (most people won't build pits), and x10 for helicopters when without extremely expensive custom helisim equipment what you're using feels exactly NOTHING like the real thing.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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One pilot says it's good.

One pilot says it's bad.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.

 

So it seems.

 

 

 

Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. {...}

 

Thanks for that.

 

It will be really good if everyone (esp. real-life Gazelle pilots, if any) could post what controllers they are using, their axis-tuning/curves, and what they think of that configuration in the context of the Gazelle. :joystick:

 

Some of us have no idea what a real Gazelle should feel like to fly, but we would certainly prefer to get something a bit more true-to-life (or avoid something that is an "absolute mess") when it is time for the next controller upgrade. Or alternatively, we would like to tweak their axis-curves to make it a bit more authentic. Of course, I know that we'll never get to being real (short of being rich/lucky enough to get to experience a Gazelle in real life), but I am already really enjoying this module and anything to make it even better would be greatly appreciated. :pilotfly:

 

 

 

PS: I am not a real-life pilot, but I find the Gazelle believable. My controllers/settings: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3904892&postcount=5

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Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. One is good for training, the other caused a ''Coming to Jesus'' moment.

 

I can only assume the transition is equally jarring when you pass from a real aircraft to what is usually a short desktop mounted stick (most people won't build pits), and x10 for helicopters when without extremely expensive custom helisim equipment what you're using feels exactly NOTHING like the real thing.

 

Of course the "feeling" depends on the equipment and the FM. But that is not the real problem with this module.

 

If you have RL experience with Main- and Tail-rotor Helicopters, then you know what happens with the cyclic-stick when you go to hover, and then when you accelerate to cruising speed.

You have to counter certain effects. E.g. if the cyclic-stick has the same position during fast forward flight as it has on ground at mechanical center, then your FM does not simulate a helicopter with main- and tail-rotor. No SAS counters that. Even fly-by wire Helicopters don't do that for you. That is one of the current Gazelle's FM problems.

 

But again, PC works on a new FM. Let's see what they come up with.

 

Fox

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PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

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I can only assume the transition is equally jarring when you pass from a real aircraft to what is usually a short desktop mounted stick (most people won't build pits), and x10 for helicopters when without extremely expensive custom helisim equipment what you're using feels exactly NOTHING like the real thing.

 

This is precisely my point. I don't fly helos or fancy jet fighters but I know using the warthog is nothing like any real aircraft stick I've used, never mind the actual feedback you get from a real stick (in my case).

 

I also had a stupid hard time flying the Gaz and other helos until very helpful folks here told me how to correctly setup the warthog for it. Now I have much easier time flying helos where before I was all over the place. And I have no comment on if thats "realistic" or not, just that helos are much easier to control with those settings.

 

And I'll try to provide a bit of constructive criticism. If I were a new "sim" pilot coming here from flying the real thing I'd think long and hard about what exact issues in the FM might be related to the craptastic controls most people have versus other parts of the FM that seem unrealistic. Because I think sometimes folks might be conflating the two.

 

Anyhow, I've never flown a helicopter so my comments on any helo FM are worthless! :)

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For future reference, btw, I understand the cyclic does not self center on a helo. With that in mind, with something like a VKB + extension, you could remove the springs, tighten the clutches up to hold it (or at least come close) and you would probably have something similarish to a helo cyclic. Failing that, simply remove the springs. It's imperfect, but still closer than a traditional stick arrangement.

 

@iFoxRomeo

I fly fixed wing, not helo, so no I don't know ;) That said, the majority of pc controls in no way function like a cyclic, so I would not be the least bit surprised if they ''feel different'' or require different inputs. It's NOT a cyclic, in any way, however PC cyclics and collectives are available, which would probably help a lot with that.

 

That said, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the Gazelle, merely that feelings are subjective and the quality of the controls people use vary widely from ''like the real thing'' to ''toy imitations'' to ''completely unsuitable'' with entirely predictable results.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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For future reference, btw, I understand the cyclic does not self center on a helo. With that in mind, with something like a VKB + extension, you could remove the springs, tighten the clutches up to hold it (or at least come close) and you would probably have something similarish to a helo cyclic. Failing that, simply remove the springs. It's imperfect, but still closer than a traditional stick arrangement.

 

@iFoxRomeo

I fly fixed wing, not helo, so no I don't know ;) That said, the majority of pc controls in no way function like a cyclic, so I would not be the least bit surprised if they ''feel different'' or require different inputs. It's NOT a cyclic, in any way, however PC cyclics and collectives are available, which would probably help a lot with that.

 

That said, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the Gazelle, merely that feelings are subjective and the quality of the controls people use vary widely from ''like the real thing'' to ''toy imitations'' to ''completely unsuitable'' with entirely predictable results.

Once again: The problem is NOT the feeling. Even full motion helicopter simulators don't feel like their real counterparts, despite having 1:1 copies of their controls.

 

The PC Gazelle does not have a plausible Helicopter Flight Modeling. That is the problem.

I tell you that this FM doesn't replicate a authentic Helicopter. It doesn't matter what type of controls you are using. It is always wrong.

 

Remove the centering springs from a Warthog Joystick, an you have a wonderfully suitable Cyclic Stick for a Helicopter simulation. But without Autopilot and force trim functionality.

 

Fox

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PC Specs: Ryzen 9 5900X, 3080ti, 64GB RAM, Oculus Quest 3

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One pilot says it's good.

One pilot says it's bad.

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.

Yep although I'll defer to the pilot with 2000hrs over my piddly 12hrs in the Gazelle. I use the Warthog on a long extension to achieve a similar feel to the real aircraft. It'd be nice to have the proper collective and pedals. And yes I am giving latitude to the developer with reference to sim capabilities.

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Ok, i have a question for the pilots here. How would you describe controls in the real gazelle?

I try to describe what's going on on my side as best as i can.

 

 

1. Nevada - Cold Start

2. without startup, i move the joystick to all extends and i can see the blades reacting accordingly 1:1, also in the cockpit - the cyclic stick moves 1:1

3. after startup, in midair this changes completely:

Try to imagine a 2 meter broomstick, rammed into solid ground, just about 30 cm are still visible. it's now sitting pretty tight, you can't move it in any direction. This is how i'm flying now (my FFB stick, a G940, reflects trim forces very well in all other modules of DCS) basically i just press a little against my stick in a direction - without moving it(!) - and the gazelle starts going into a continuous roll in that direction. Compared to the 1:1, x and y axis extend test before starting up, my true input now must be something like only 1-3% of the same range. The ingame cockpit cyclic also doesn't move. It feels like that i'm just pressing 4 buttons, up/down, left/right.

 

Is that realistic for this particular heli?

 

 

As a reminder, everything is setup perfectly, all other modules are working perfectly fine with inputs (for helicopters and planes) and i never have to mess with input curvatures (stick has hall sensors).


Edited by Alec Delorean

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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Ok, i have a question for the pilots here. How would you describe controls in the real gazelle?

I try to describe what's going on on my side as best as i can.

 

....

 

This is how i'm flying now (my FFB stick, a G940, reflects trim forces very well in all other modules of DCS) basically i just press a little against my stick in a direction - without moving it(!) - and it starts going into a continuous roll in that correction. I Compared to the 1:1, x and y axis extend test before starting up, my true input now must be something like only 1-3% of the same range. The ingame cockpit cyclic also doesn't move. It feels like that i'm just pressing 4 buttons, up/down, left/right

 

...

 

As a reminder, everything is setup perfectly, all other modules are working perfectly fine with inputs (for helicopters and planes) and i never have to mess with input curvatures (stick has hall sensors).

 

It is a know fact that the force feedback support for the Gazelle is bugged. Right now you will get strange behaviour when the ffb option is enabled. The feature will get another look at in the planned updates. If it makes the list of fixes remains to be seen. We want to be transparent on that. We know it’s not what you want to hear but you’ll have to disable FFB from the settings/misc menu. This goes for everyone wether you have an FFB enabled stick or not.

 

 

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Just tried disabling FFB, didn't help a bit. After startup the "invisible" input of the stick is x100 of what it was before startup. Guys, please make a hotfix! This module is out for years now...

i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules

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