Refueling....

Id appreciate any thoughts from experienced A10C pilots on the subject of refueling. I find (after MANY attempts) that controlling the aircrafts speed with the CH Pro throttle does not give me the fine, immediate control I need to catch up to and then slow down to match speed of Texaco. It seems I get a more controlled response from using the speed brake. What techniques do you guys use to successfully refuel?

Just ignore hud and speed gauge...look at the belly of tanker..keep left and right hud bezel alligned with tanker engines..kerp formation with tanker not the refuel boom

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Using the throttle should give you better control than using the speed brake. Looking at real life operations it's what they do anyway.

Just ignore hud and speed gauge...look at the belly of tanker..keep left and right hud bezel alligned with tanker engines..kerp formation with tanker not the refuel boom

 

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Thanks.Good to know.

Using the throttle should give you better control than using the speed brake. Looking at real life operations it's what they do anyway.

 

That maybe, but that is NOT my experience with the HOTAS I am using. The throttle is slow to speed up when trying to catch Texaco and then when Im close its slow to slow down. Speed brake is MUCH more responsive and seems to give me finer and quicker control.

Interesting angle on refueling, but I find the view from the A10C making the connect more helpful... ;)

If you are having trouble with the speed control, i dont think any techniques would help. You just need to practice more. I dont know how they do it in real life but like Axelerator said, ive never seen a video of a a2a refuelling with brakes open.

As far as my experience goes you dont need the alignment lights, level flight and speed control is the way to do it.

If you are having trouble with the speed control, i dont think any techniques would help. You just need to practice more. I dont know how they do it in real life but like Axelerator said, ive never seen a video of a a2a refuelling with brakes open.

 

As far as my experience goes you dont need the alignment lights, level flight and speed control is the way to do it.

Excellant point....

If you need a step-by-step walkthrough here it is, and this is how i do it,

You shouldnt be approaching the tanker with more than 5 knots of speed difference.

9-10 seconds before you are in range of the boom, you should lower the speed difference to 1-2 knots. A2A Refueling is basically a close formation flight, so you will need to fly straight, level and match your speed to the tankers. The moment you hear the contact call, there are only 2 things you need to watch for, your speed indicator in the hud and TVV.

TVV has to stay aligned with the artificial horizon and your speed should be the same with the tankers. These two are actually connected to each other because when you change your speed that will effect the lift vector and force your aircraft to either climb or descend and likewise if you bring your nose up or down that will change your acceleration. So the important thing to consider is, if you increase throttle you will need to counter it with just a little bit of nose down pitch before you see the effects of speeding up and vice versa. I actually find it like trying to hover with a helicopter, everything you do on 1 control surface will effect the others so you need to start countering them immediately.

A10 s engines cannot just jump 50 percent power in an instant, there is a delay between your throttle inputs and the engine actually spinning up to set power setting. This is why i said you need more practice, you need to get used to it.

If you need a step-by-step walkthrough here it is, and this is how i do it,

 

You shouldnt be approaching the tanker with more than 5 knots of speed difference.

9-10 seconds before you are in range of the boom, you should lower the speed difference to 1-2 knots. A2A Refueling is basically a close formation flight, so you will need to fly straight, level and match your speed to the tankers. The moment you hear the contact call, there are only 2 things you need to watch for, your speed indicator in the hud and TVV.

 

TVV has to stay aligned with the artificial horizon and your speed should be the same with the tankers. These two are actually connected to each other because when you change your speed that will effect the lift vector and force your aircraft to either climb or descend and likewise if you bring your nose up or down that will change your acceleration. So the important thing to consider is, if you increase throttle you will need to counter it with just a little bit of nose down pitch before you see the effects of speeding up and vice versa. I actually find it like trying to hover with a helicopter, everything you do on 1 control surface will effect the others so you need to start countering them immediately.

 

A10 s engines cannot just jump 50 percent power in an instant, there is a delay between your throttle inputs and the engine actually spinning up to set power setting. This is why i said you need more practice, you need to get used to it.

SWEET! Thank you.

Practice is my middle name ever since I started flying DCS. Do it about 4 hours a day. (The life of a retired video editor.)

I believe that of the many, many tips regarding AAR I've read over the years, one was to keep the speed brakes a little bit open in order to get a more direct throttle response. It's not "the" recommended way, but honestly, whatever helps us with AAR is fine in my book. ;)

Of course the good old pilot induced oscillation happens to all of us, it just takes practice to get rid of it. I've seen pilots who are pretty good at formation flying, they've got pitch and roll under control, but matching speed with the boom is their biggest challenge.

Just take your time, build up muscle memory, watch the oscillations get smaller and smaller, and at some point in time, it just "clicks" and all of a sudden you wonder why there was ever any problem. How long that takes, well, that's not set in stone. In the meantime, feel free to shoot down the damn tanker every now and then to relieve the stress, after all it's just a game. :D

In the meantime, feel free to shoot down the damn tanker every now and then to relieve the stress, after all it's just a game. :D

Thats the best tip, because it actually keeps you trying again and again without getting stressed!:lol:

I believe that of the many, many tips regarding AAR I've read over the years, one was to keep the speed brakes a little bit open in order to get a more direct throttle response. It's not "the" recommended way, but honestly, whatever helps us with AAR is fine in my book. ;)

 

Of course the good old pilot induced oscillation happens to all of us, it just takes practice to get rid of it. I've seen pilots who are pretty good at formation flying, they've got pitch and roll under control, but matching speed with the boom is their biggest challenge.

 

Just take your time, build up muscle memory, watch the oscillations get smaller and smaller, and at some point in time, it just "clicks" and all of a sudden you wonder why there was ever any problem. How long that takes, well, that's not set in stone. In the meantime, feel free to shoot down the damn tanker every now and then to relieve the stress, after all it's just a game. :D

Agree 100%, use the air brake as I do too, it really helps. Forget the 'it's not realistic' crowd, do what works. I honestly believe that A-A refuelling in dcs is more difficult than it should be.

Ofc is more difficult with no real depth perception (try AAR with VR for instance, it's a whole other game almost), no sensory feedback except for sight and hearing, not being able to pan with eyes and just not the entire head etc etc.

But at the same time we have very predictable weather, very little to no turbulence ... so. well. I dunno man :)

I can certainly agree with Yurgon on the whole clicking thing. I practiced it for a while with the earlier mentioned frustraion and not being able to get it right, often ending in gunsgunsguns or fox2, but one day I kinda got it. I stopped wobbling and kinda got the hang of making a minimal adjustment and shortly after counteracting that adjustment. Altho I only own the A-10C and the M2k, I _constantly_ adjust the throttle like when flying formation.

Agree 100%, use the air brake as I do too, it really helps. Forget the 'it's not realistic' crowd, do what works. I honestly believe that A-A refuelling in dcs is more difficult than it should be.

Thats my point though. If you feel the need to use the air brakes, you are obviously doing something wrong.

Dont get me wrong, im no expert on the a10 nor i stay in close formation or air refuel perfectly. I do use the airbrakes too when i start to speed up a bit too much. This is the crucial part, that "speeding up a bit too much" happens because you/me are not comfortable enough with the throttle management. Thats why you need more practice, but if you depend on your airbrakes everytime instead of proper usage of the throttle, you are actually telling yourself " dont bother learning the throttle, just use the airbrakes". As a consequence instead of getting better, you are just doing the same mistake over and over again until it becomes muscle memory for you.

Ofc is more difficult with no real depth perception (try AAR with VR for instance, it's a whole other game almost), no sensory feedback except for sight and hearing, not being able to pan with eyes and just not the entire head etc etc.

But at the same time we have very predictable weather, very little to no turbulence ... so. well. I dunno man :)

 

 

The ONLY way I play DCS is in VR :)

My thanks to all for your input. I spent an hour just flying in formation with Texaco. It turned out to be, for the most part, a doable and fun challenge. I will be sticking with this until my instincts tell me Im ready for the next phase. Shadowing the jet was more fun then I expected. And when it became a bit frustrating it was fun to turn Kamikazee and ram it. :devil_2: