J3tBl4st Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I have shared my frustrations with the 3rd mission in the Argo Campaign with a Helicopter Simulation Facebook Group. They said that a number of them have raised concerns with BelsimTek when hearing of changes they (BelSimTek) were making with the Huey, but were being ignored. We are in contact with a number of real world Huey pilots to get precise data on the Huey's real world performance and EGT to take to BelSimTek to get this issue resolved ones and for all. When you start the mission, the Chopper is already 9105 lbs and Max Capacity is 9500 lbs and you still need to Hook 1000 lbs cargo... this is waaaayy beyond max capacity. I nearly have to red line the EGT just to hover high enough to hook the cargo, never mind vertical take of for ground clearance, I have to drag the cargo on the ground to build up speed and lift to not exceed the red line by too much. In flight is OK. But dropping it off on the other side, you again have to red line the EGT to be able to hover the cargo into place to unhook. By that time the engine has concked out. It is next to impossible to complete this mission, not to mention as a "real world" fixed wing pilot, under absolutely "no" circumstance would an aircraft be overloaded with a 1000 lbs of cargo beyond its maximum load capacity. I offloaded about 1000 lbs of fuel to see if that made things any easier, but not really, and arriving at the destination I am nearly at Bingo fuel. Who is going to fix this???? Are the mission creators going to fix their mission? Is BelSimTek going to fix the utter lack in performance as expressed by real world Huey Pilots? Or is DCS going to scrub the broken Huey and refund our purchase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 1. I have shared my frustrations with the 3rd mission in the Argo Campaign with a Helicopter Simulation Facebook Group. ... Who is going to fix this???? Are the mission creators going to fix their mission? Yes. I 've talked to Greg and he is aware of the new EGT changes that make some cargo missions unplayable. Currently we are recalculating all the cargoes in order to make changes in the missions that have issues and hopefully in the next days we will send the new files to ED in order for the campaign to be playable as it was few days ago. 2. Is BelSimTek going to fix the utter lack in performance as expressed by real world Huey Pilots? Yes. Thank you guys for being involved! Our helicopter department specialists have an idea about what needs to be done for EGT tuning. We would need to adjust changes after new DCS version will release, and so you would be able to try it as well. We will make announcement when changes will hit openbeta, and we think we will do same format and listen what you will say, like we did here in this thread. The fix implementation taking more time that we would want, but Huey engine needs some considerable changes for this new solution to be in place. We jumped on our engine programmers with this while they were in the middle of F/A-18C project, so now they are split between two tasks and not going really fast. We hope, that when F-18C will go early access, patch for Huey engine will also be close to completion. now we update our work for fixes this issues (F-18C gave us some freedom) 3. Or is DCS going to scrub the broken Huey and refund our purchase? • The EGT damage model was introduced with 1.5.8, if you are impatient to fly the Argo Campaign, you may revert to DCS 1.5.6 until the required changes reach 2.5.x i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromhunt Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) Strange that a player who chose DCS to try the helicos, is surprised by the difficulty? It seems that in this game, many parameters to which players are not aware, are implemented. If you find somewhere a Huey flight manual, you'll see that like all aircraft, its performance changes with altitude and air temperature and atmospheric pressure and hygrometry, and not only according to its take-off weight. The EGT is only an indication of the turbine temperature according to the torque. For each application of the collective pitch the turbine is requested even if its speed is nominal. The continuous EGT max temperature must be respected in its range of use as the torque, however it can be exceeded but over a short period. The fuel flow is dependent on the use of the turbine, the player must adapt his control to save fuel Finally a linked turbine does not behave like a free turbine. Indeed the EGT is slightly too sensitive but at least it makes touching the difficulties of engine management on a helico.i think it was the intention of programmers. Last point the direction of the wind is very important, even if most players do not pay attention https://www.dropbox.com/s/kpdtwfbapz8pnms/Untitled-6.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/umbjo8b9nixugo6/Untitled-8.jpg?dl=0 Edited July 11, 2018 by cromhunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3tBl4st Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 Strange that a player who chose DCS to try the helicos, is surprised by the difficulty? It seems that in this game, many parameters to which players are not aware, are implemented. I am not bothered by real world limitations as long as they are "Accurate". I am a real world pilot and fly for a VA in X-Plane 11 etc. I prefer "simulation" over arcade style playing any day of the week. I am after "realism". But as stated, the loads far exceed the aircraft's limitation by a 1000 lbs which no pilot in the world in his right mind would ever even consider. And according to real world Huey pilots, this model is way more sissy that the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3tBl4st Posted July 11, 2018 Author Share Posted July 11, 2018 1. Thank you for the detailed reply, very much appreciated to know that they are working on it and won't be leaving it broken, because from replies I've seen on facebook, BelSimTek was shrugging off most complaints and apparently it has gone on for a while. Unfortunately the quotes in your post don't contain date stamps. Are these recent and ongoing updates? Or are the posts years old? Regards J3tBl4st Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) Unfortunately the quotes in your post don't contain date stamps. Are these recent and ongoing updates? Or are the posts years old? If you click on the red arrow in the quote - they take you to the original post/time stamp. 1. The Argos Campaign dev reply was from today, 10:30 11th July 2018 2. PilotMi8's comment that BST had freed resources to start fixing the EGT issue was made on 15th June 2018, so about 4 weeks ago. ... from replies I've seen on facebook, BelSimTek was shrugging off most complaints and apparently it has gone on for a while. EGT damage was added to the Huey in 1.5.8 Open Beta, released on 29th Nov 2017, so approx. 8 months ago. While 8 months may seem a long time to some players, if flown to EGT limits of 615°C/625°C the Huey can be flown with reduced performance. IIRC the Argo Campaign was designed without too much reference to RL limitations and play tested to be challenging but 'doable' before BST added engine damage. So it's not too suprising that some missions are impossible or very difficult. However it's missions aren't the only ones be effected and that require changes to loadout, etc. until BST implement their improved engine model. Edited July 11, 2018 by Ramsay i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromhunt Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) To"J3tB4lst" "X plane 11" "real world", "VA", I'm not sure I understand? But have you ever piloted a helico in real life? On the other hand in a game, and even for a simulator as demanding as DCS, it will not be possible to represent all the parameters of the real flight. In any case not with the computers that the players use. You can dispute the inconsistencies of the game because it is just a game. As said in my first response it "seems" that some of the parameters of the actual flight are implemanted, but that's a guess. If this is the case and you do not take it into account, your experience will be bad. If nothing is really simulated, then it is a waste of time to think that mistakes exist because, for sure, you will find some. Now you can be amazed by the 1000 lbs capacity to go in addition to the MTOW of an aircraft, but I have already practiced this in real flight with both an airplane and a helico. Of course using everything that aerology can offer me. Everything is not written in the books. Edited July 11, 2018 by cromhunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowsniper Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) hi All. the subject is not "real study simmer" vs "arcadish simmer" vs real pilot if EGT limits are implemented , there is no problem with the fact to implement acurate EGT limits . we all enjoy DCS because it is the most accurate. the problem maybe after few more test ( light huey, mid fuel, winter, no load, and test with a sling load also ) is HOW we reach EGT limit and how it is accurate 1) maybe EGT temp is a bit too much sensitive regarding loads and weight and torque ? 3) maybe delay before engine failure is a bit too short we miss here a random parameter before failure or partial/radical power loss? 4) it's surprising that with a light huey, mid fuel, no weapons, you can not load a standard sling load without reaching EGT limits to know what Belsimtek have implemented see this published on their fb page (if not yet published here i don't know): " What you should expect: If you are over EGT safe limits for a considerable amount of time (we will provide in-game test numbers below), it will start a cumulative degradation effect which will depend on the time and EGT temperature in which you will be flying since that cumulative degradation effect started. cumulative degradation effect will cause permanent engine performance degradation and percentage of that degradation will depend again on temperature and time. If you drop to safe numbers before cumulative degradation effect started, you will save normal engine performance. If you drop to safe numbers after cumulative degradation effect started, it will stop its accumulation and you will return to degraded engine performance, but accumulated cumulative degradation effect will not go anywhere. And next time you go above limits, it will start to grow again and it will bring more performance degradation. After cumulative degradation effect reaches its limit and if you still operate engine above limits it will cause even more engine performance degradation and can cause engine fire. Here is approximate numbers from our in-game tests (just a couple examples): EGT temperature on gauge 645: 166 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before performance degradation (FREE TURBINE RPM will drop by ~200 in 5-10 sec); 209 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before your engine can catch fire EGT temperature on gauge 680: 83-88 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before performance degradation (FREE TURBINE RPM will drop by ~200 in 3-6 sec); 90-95 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before your engine can catch fire Here is numbers from manual we obtained from our SME: 400 to 610 ºC Continuous. Green Arc 610º to 625ºC Take off power. Maximum use 30 minutes. If using that temperature range more than 30 minutes it may damage the engine and maybe produce a fire. 625 to 675 Maximum 10 seconds (only for starting or acceleration) if more than 10 sec. HOT START 675 to 760 Maximum 5 seconds (only for starting or acceleration) if more than 5 sec. HOT START 760ºC Maximum. If exceeded is a HOT start or if in flight it may probably tell you have engine fire. For normal flight conditions 625ºC is the maximum. Exceeding the limitations here may lead to engine damage, engine fire or even engine stop. With the Governor in Emergency the pilot may easily exceed the engine limits in N1 (engine structural damage beyond N1 101,5%) and EGT. Exceeding those limits could damage the engine, produce a fire or get the engine stopped" So maybe a bit more tweaking is needed. but last but not least, campaign and mission must be realisticly set in load limitation to let mission doable. PM : has someone did stock Belsimteck mont Elbrus mission, since EGT implementation lol . Edited July 12, 2018 by snowsniper i7-10700KF CPU 3.80GHz - 32 GO Ram - - nVidia RTX 2070 - SSD Samsung EVO with LG TV screen 40" in 3840x2150 - cockpit scale 1:1 - MS FFB2 Joystick - COUGAR F16 throttle - Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rge75 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Elbrus Rescue was working fine for me after EGT implementition in DCS 2.5. In fact I also didn't have many problems with the Argo campaign missions. Some cargos indeed were hard to lift/drop, but they were all working in DCS 2.5.2. My DCS videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJX2av4UE4xqWto3y8EZWMw [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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