MurderOne Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I was curious if any real world data as far as pk was implemented in DCS. It seems the AIM-120 is way more effective in DCS than the real world (so much so, that I feel like I'm cheating in MP if I use it, and I know I'm a dead man if it's launched at me), where basically firing against drones, achieved a 0.59 real world pk according to the RAND Air Combat Report. AIM-9M had a real world pk of 0.23 in Desert Storm (48 fired, 11 kills). Now with the F-14 on the horizon, we'll probably be getting the AIM-54, which on paper is a terrifying weapon, but from what I personally witnessed in TACTS, missed more than 75% of the time. Several real world launches also demonstrated misses. I'm sure that missiles from every nation share similar characteristics, though we all want to believe "ours" are the best. While I haven't done any sort of "scientific testing", it seems all missiles perform better in DCS than their real world counterparts. My personal disclaimer: I come from US Naval Aviation. F/A-18A/B, C/D. I shared hangar space with F-14D Bombcats. I am a fan boy! If anyone already has done testing, or if the real world data does indeed match, I'm all ears. I just want it as real as it should be, or could be, though I understand there has to be a "fun" factor I guess beyond what is real. Sorry, no cool signature here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Pk itself doesn't tell why the missile missed so you can't simulate missile behavior based on Pk alone. Other thing is that in practice missiles capability to hit target is highly dependent on what the target does to defeat the missile which is not a property of the missile itself. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Maybe a thing to add is Missile malfunction, like missiles getting stuck on the rail, missiles failing to ignite, etc... I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) I was curious if any real world data as far as pk was implemented in DCS. It seems the AIM-120 is way more effective in DCS than the real world (so much so, that I feel like I'm cheating in MP if I use it, and I know I'm a dead man if it's launched at me), where basically firing against drones, achieved a 0.59 real world pk according to the RAND Air Combat Report. And what's the Pk in MP? About 0.3. But don't let that distract you from your 'feels' :) (How do we know? At some point that data was gathered in an automated manner) Pk doesn't tell you why it is what it is - this included shots that were known to be launched out of parameters, failed missiles, double shots at a given target etc. Are you saying you constantly take off with 120's and more than half of them score skills in multiple sorties? AIM-9M had a real world pk of 0.23 in Desert Storm (48 fired, 11 kills). Now with the F-14 on the horizon, we'll probably be getting the AIM-54, which on paper is a terrifying weapon, but from what I personally witnessed in TACTS, missed more than 75% of the time. Several real world launches also demonstrated misses. Again, largely irrelevant. A lot of 9Ms were launched out of parameters or even by mistake. 54's launched in combat were improperly maintained - the batteries never turned on. Given that the USN only got those two opportunities to take a shot (I seem to recall a 3rd, but also a potential out-of-parameters shot) with 54's, they had no opportunity to correct the issue, which would have been easy to deal with. I'm sure that missiles from every nation share similar characteristics, though we all want to believe "ours" are the best. While I haven't done any sort of "scientific testing",Sounds like a serious non-starter, especially if you have to put scientific testing in quotes. My personal disclaimer: I come from US Naval Aviation. F/A-18A/B, C/D. I shared hangar space with F-14D Bombcats. I am a fan boy! If anyone already has done testing, or if the real world data does indeed match, I'm all ears. I just want it as real as it should be, or could be, though I understand there has to be a "fun" factor I guess beyond what is real.Missiles in-game generally under-perform in many ways. They may also under or over-perform in ways that we are not aware of. Edited January 10, 2018 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Sure, see how well that goes. Could it be that it will be an option that's turned off, much like bird strikes? :) Maybe a thing to add is Missile malfunction, like missiles getting stuck on the rail, missiles failing to ignite, etc... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Sure, see how well that goes. Could it be that it will be an option that's turned off, much like bird strikes? :) Just like current aircraft malfunctions, you can take off in a bird that will never fail or program specific failures at certain times or even random failures at random times. I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schurem Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Well, fwiw in my little exercise fight, My sidewinders did a PK of about 0.33. Guess it takes more than a sidewinders' worth of shrapnel to take a suitcase down. On the other hand, GAU-12 is deadly as F. I5 9600KF, 32GB, 3080ti, G2, PointCTRL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Yeah I get you. Waste of time. Theres a huge amount of things to be fine for missiles and IMHO this is the least needed. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiib Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 The real missing statistic here is why were those missiles fired? I'm no veteran of air combat, but many missiles i fire in DCS are fired to force a defensive reaction. They are fired with full knowledge that if the target evades at all, the missile will not have the energy to maneuver for an impact. That said, there have been many posts about improving the realism of missile energy. Basically, across the board, AA missiles lose energy too quickly post boost phase... I was curious if any real world data as far as pk was implemented in DCS. It seems the AIM-120 is way more effective in DCS than the real world (so much so, that I feel like I'm cheating in MP if I use it, and I know I'm a dead man if it's launched at me), where basically firing against drones, achieved a 0.59 real world pk according to the RAND Air Combat Report. AIM-9M had a real world pk of 0.23 in Desert Storm (48 fired, 11 kills). Now with the F-14 on the horizon, we'll probably be getting the AIM-54, which on paper is a terrifying weapon, but from what I personally witnessed in TACTS, missed more than 75% of the time. Several real world launches also demonstrated misses. I'm sure that missiles from every nation share similar characteristics, though we all want to believe "ours" are the best. While I haven't done any sort of "scientific testing", it seems all missiles perform better in DCS than their real world counterparts. My personal disclaimer: I come from US Naval Aviation. F/A-18A/B, C/D. I shared hangar space with F-14D Bombcats. I am a fan boy! If anyone already has done testing, or if the real world data does indeed match, I'm all ears. I just want it as real as it should be, or could be, though I understand there has to be a "fun" factor I guess beyond what is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearbox Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Don't forget the F-14 use during the Iran-Iraq war. This doesn't have numbers on total weapons fired but they scored a bunch of AIM-54 kills: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iranian_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war Pretty good article about them from Air&Space below as well. One interesting point is that just lighting up Migs with the radar was enough to get them to bug out since they knew they were screwed if an AIM-54 were sent their way. https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/persian-cats-9242012/?no-ist=&page=2 I'm surprised/disappointed that we don't have a current missile in US inventory with such ridiculous range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 You have AIM-120D. The AIM-120A was already useable to 80nm under very specific (theoretical, but theorized by the USAF itself) circumstances. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackmckay Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Missile PK in MP is directly correlated to pilot pool experience so that is kind of undefined but another thing that heavily impacts PK in MP is damn lag that ED hasnt find remmedy for, yet. Also, missile drag rate is way up, except 530, by my personal observation as F10 missile speed readout is gone. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will- Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I thought there was a mod that everyone wanted implemented b/c A/A missiles were shown to be very poorly modeled to what the speeds/acc could achieve. GL reading, this is just a quick search as there are already many, many post about this. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=155529&highlight=aim+120 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187381&highlight=aim+120 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=171063&highlight=aim+120 Intel i9-9900K 32GB DDR4, RTX 2080tiftw3, Windows 10, 1tb 970 M2, TM Warthog, 4k 144hz HDR g-sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 You have AIM-120D. The AIM-120A was already useable to 80nm under very specific (theoretical, but theorized by the USAF itself) circumstances. Hmm.., from what I've read the listed range for the AIM-120C is 57 nm, whilst it's said to be at ~80nm for the AIM-120D. By comparison the AIM-54C is listed with a range of >100 nm. Either way today you would undoubtedly be able to make an AIM-54 go further with updated datalink & GPS systems which alone constituted the 50% increase in range from the 120C to D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 AMRAAM benefits from significant propulsion and electronics upgrades which affect the very flying physics of the thing. As for wiki ranges of missiles, whatever. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) AIM-9M had a real world pk of 0.23 in Desert Storm (48 fired, 11 kills). Weren't quite a few of those accidental, though? IIRC the F-16 guys shot...A lot...(off the top of my head, 36 though that sounds yuuge, so IDK)...while switching modes on A/G missions. Edited January 11, 2018 by Sweep words and things Lord of Salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicatt Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm surprised/disappointed that we don't have a current missile in US inventory with such ridiculous range. According to budget reports there is a long range AIM 120 replacement in the works just now. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-long-range-missile-project-emerges-in-us-budget-442816/ The existence of a two-year-old project to develop a new air-to-air missile capable of intercepting targets at great distances has emerged in US budget documents. The Office of the Secretary Defense (OSD) launched a two-year engineering assessment of a new long-range engagement weapon (LREW) designed with the goal of “maintaining air dominance”, according to budget documents released last March. But the programme offers the first indication that the US military is interested in a new missile to replace or surpass the capabilities of the Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM. Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh Clan Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I was curious if any real world data as far as pk was implemented in DCS. It seems the AIM-120 is way more effective in DCS than the real world (so much so, that I feel like I'm cheating in MP if I use it, and I know I'm a dead man if it's launched at me), where basically firing against drones, achieved a 0.59 real world pk according to the RAND Air Combat Report. AIM-9M had a real world pk of 0.23 in Desert Storm (48 fired, 11 kills). Now with the F-14 on the horizon, we'll probably be getting the AIM-54, which on paper is a terrifying weapon, but from what I personally witnessed in TACTS, missed more than 75% of the time. Several real world launches also demonstrated misses. I'm sure that missiles from every nation share similar characteristics, though we all want to believe "ours" are the best. While I haven't done any sort of "scientific testing", it seems all missiles perform better in DCS than their real world counterparts. My personal disclaimer: I come from US Naval Aviation. F/A-18A/B, C/D. I shared hangar space with F-14D Bombcats. I am a fan boy! If anyone already has done testing, or if the real world data does indeed match, I'm all ears. I just want it as real as it should be, or could be, though I understand there has to be a "fun" factor I guess beyond what is real. Err... 59% is the actual combat Pk. Drone firing tests were more like 98-99%. The AIM-9, as used by F-15s had a Pk of 67% in Desert Storm. The lower overall Pk was down to accidental firings by F-16s due to a known problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurderOne Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 Err... 59% is the actual combat Pk. Drone firing tests were more like 98-99%. In my initial post, be aware, I am not advocating for "worse performance". I am merely inquiring as to whether or not these variables of pk are incorporated in the DCS we know and love. I apologize to the apparent elitists who feel that since I have not conducted my own "scientific testing", that I am to be disregarded. I am merely making an inquiry. That aside, I present the following. I have excerpted this directly from 2008 Rand Pacific View Air Combat Briefing; I cannot currently locate the 2016 briefing. I too, personally, dispute the pk as presented in this instance; 13 fired missiles for 10 kills, 6 of which were BVR. Total kills should present a .77 pk. This data does not include what the 2016 report contains, which does indeed change the total data, though it lowers the pk slightly overall. While these were not target drones, there was no ECM used, nor evasive maneuvers of any sort applied, and these were all real world kills. – U.S. has recorded ten AIM-120 kills – Four not Beyond Visual Range – Fired 13 missiles to achieve 6 BVR kills Pk = 0.46* – Iraqi MiGs were fleeing and non-maneuvering – Serb J-21 had no radar or Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) – US Army UH-60 not expecting attack; no radar or ECM – Serb MiG-29 FULCRUMS had inoperative radars – No reports of ECM use by any victim – No victim had comparable BVR weapon – Fights involved numerical parity or US numerical superiority Sorry, no cool signature here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 It is not known whether they used ECM and I need only refer you to the Dogfights TV series to find a source for evasive manoeuvres performed by the adversaries, which included notching. Many of the confrontations in Desert Storm actually didn't involve numerical superiority either in that specific fight. Although it's great to meet you on yet another forum Picard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurderOne Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 Although it's great to meet you on yet another forum Picard. That's an interesting statement, but it is lost on me as I am not on any other forums. I can not in good conscience rely on a television series to obtain information, so I will continue to rely on official reports and documentation. Sorry, no cool signature here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Rage* Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Dogfights TV series :lol: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] 64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 195.201.110.22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 They're embellished but they're well based on the real reports in these cases :D I agree, they're not the best source. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) In my initial post, be aware, I am not advocating for "worse performance". I am merely inquiring as to whether or not these variables of pk are incorporated in the DCS we know and love. I apologize to the apparent elitists who feel that since I have not conducted my own "scientific testing", that I am to be disregarded. I am merely making an inquiry. That aside, I present the following. Your inquiry is poor. Apologize all you want, or don't - your inquiry is still very poor and insinuates that things aren't modeled correctly based on feelings. There are plenty here, including ED themselves, who have read the report you refer to. It's purpose is not an attempt to explain or model why the Pk was what it was and as such, this information is not included. For this reason it does nothing to support your inquiry. We may as well base R-27 Pk on the Eritrea-Ethiopia reports which peg this thing at 0.05Pk :) The answer to your question: ECM is largely irrelevant to missiles in-game. Maneuvering reduces Pk Countermeasures reduce Pk The follow up to your question is: The situation is far more complicated than one might glean from discussing that one number. It's merely a start. You can search the forum and find a whole load of discussion on this. Edited January 11, 2018 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emu Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Dogfights TV series :lol: Well they're based on real pilot interviews which has to be at least as good as Word Press and Pierre Sprey right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts