OK, be honest - Opinions on WVR dogfighting

OK folks, I'm curious. First of all, this is a fantastic module, wonderfully built and I have no doubt a fantastic representation of the real thing. But I'm going to put it out there and be honest: I don't think the Tomcat is a very good WVR/BFM fighter against the DCS contemporaries (Mig-29, F-15C, F/A-18C).

I've put in quite a bit of time doing 1v1 type fights in the Tomcat since it's been released. I've got basic handling down quite well - I still rip my wings off every now and then when I get overzealous, but otherwise I keep her under control, make her turn the way I want to at high alpha, and just generally handle fairly well.

However, against other similarly skilled human players in primarily Hornets, I still can't keep up. The Hornet and Mig29 have a much tighter turn radius and nose authority, so 1-circle fights are over before the first 180*. I thought she'd fair much better in the 2 circle, but it seems that even the Hornet can out rate her in sustained turns. It takes several revolutions, but each turn the Hornet gains a few more degrees.

We have a really small server community, so we know each other really well. In the Hornet, so far I've managed to win the vast majority of our 1v1, and even 2v1 fights. But these same guys eat me for breakfast when I jump in a Tomcat (they stay in a Hornet). Same skill levels, different airframes.

So what I'm curious to know is, what are other's experiences? Is there anyone out there who's consistently managed to best the Hornet / Mig29 flown by closely matched human players?

I think the Tomcat would fare much better against human flown Mig23/25 (more it's contemporaries, unless we step up to the F14D) if we had them.

Discuss! (hopefully we can keep it civil!)

Hello, let me just tell you:

This matter has been talked here at the forum (in several threads), over and over , with great detail, by people with a depth of knowledge that one would get surprised.

Start here, and you will quickly understand what I'm talking about... LOTS of info on the subject:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140030

I think part of the problem is the mystique of the F14. People have this tendency to view it as the ultimate dog fighter. I love the F14, it’s by far my favorite military aircraft. But I’ve tried to stay as un biased as I could and realize that it is not the holy grail. You have to really fly it smart and by the numbers. Granted, I have yet to fly the F14 PvP. So far it’s been like 90% case 1 work and the rest just flying around NTTR and doing the 1v1 guns only against the F16 instant action. From what I’ve learned so far, you cannot let the AoA get high in the F14. It will bleed speed like crazy and be a handful to control. Keeping it in the 300-400kt range and no more than 16-17 units AoA seems to be optimal. So far though, if I was able to fight myself in a 1v1 guns only, the version of myself flying the Hornet would have a much easier time winning I would think. The Hornet just has insane slow speed/high AoA handling and you can point the nose just about anywhere. I’m planning on finally getting on some servers this weekend to get some PvP going. I think the key will be to keep the fight as unfair as possible. Sneak up on targets, use the Tomcats power and speed to my advantage. DO NOT let myself getting slow, and not be afraid to bug out and love to fight another day

Hello, let me just tell you:

 

This matter has been talked here at the forum (in several threads), over and over , with great detail, by people with a depth of knowledge that one would get surprised.

 

Start here, and you will quickly understand what I'm talking about... LOTS of info on the subject:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140030

Haha, I remember that thread. It quickly devolved into arguments and performance charts. It was also before we had the module in hand.

I’m looking to discuss people’s thoughts, now that we have the module in hand and some time in it.

There is a third axis.....

I think part of the problem is the mystique of the F14. People have this tendency to view it as the ultimate dog fighter. I love the F14, it’s by far my favorite military aircraft. But I’ve tried to stay as un biased as I could and realize that it is not the holy grail. You have to really fly it smart and by the numbers. Granted, I have yet to fly the F14 PvP. So far it’s been like 90% case 1 work and the rest just flying around NTTR and doing the 1v1 guns only against the F16 instant action. From what I’ve learned so far, you cannot let the AoA get high in the F14. It will bleed speed like crazy and be a handful to control. Keeping it in the 300-400kt range and no more than 16-17 units AoA seems to be optimal. So far though, if I was able to fight myself in a 1v1 guns only, the version of myself flying the Hornet would have a much easier time winning I would think. The Hornet just has insane slow speed/high AoA handling and you can point the nose just about anywhere. I’m planning on finally getting on some servers this weekend to get some PvP going. I think the key will be to keep the fight as unfair as possible. Sneak up on targets, use the Tomcats power and speed to my advantage. DO NOT let myself getting slow, and not be afraid to bug out and love to fight another day

Good points, and generally about how I feel. I too love this airplane, and this module. I’m just perhaps a bit disappointed in the performance of the aircraft, maybe I unrealistically expected too much.

As for bugging out, I’ve tried it against hornets when I just couldn’t get the advantage - while I was able to outrun the aircraft, I couldn’t outrun his AIM9X :lol: (though once or twice I was actually able to do that - this plane is fast!)

There is a third axis.....

Even going vertical, the Hornet manages to keep up, which surprised me as well.

I should clarify - in the setups we’ve tried, it’s been 2 AIM9 each, full fuel for the Tomcat and just over half for the hornet, which seems to give about the same endurance at burner.

Yeah I can imagine going up against a F18 with JHMCS and the 9X to be a death sentence. BUT, the Tomcat is my baby and I am determined to find a way to win with it. That’s going to involve many hours of flying and viewing tacview files, but it’ll be fun!

I think a lot of people are confusing transient performance versus turn performance they are not the same thing. I said this same thing on a YouTube video that I watched. The turn performance is there in the aircraft you have to use your brain your noodle on how to dogfight with the aircraft. I see a lot of videos out there that fight with this aircraft with way too much speed and it looks like you're arcing across the sky doing nothing.

I do believe a lot of you yanking bank and pull as hard as you can because that's what you're used to because of previous flight models give you that ability thanks to their flight control systems and fly-by-wire. In my opinion most of those planes are flying way too perfect I've argument this during my flight Sim time with the dod arguing Lockheed Martin engineers and with streamlight time with them I ended up fixing all of their stuff they made wrong within less than 30 days!. Was my time with the dod I flew with a lot of pilots in the simulation and listen to them talk and listen talk about tactics.

If you're on YouTube .. look for growling sidewinder you should watch him. He doesn't yank and Bank .. hamfist. He has very few hours on the F14 b and I was impressed what he put up there against the MiG-29.

the F14 talks back to you it makes you a better pilot because you have to listen to what the plane is telling you. The other planes you just control it. The plane isn't for everybody. there's a reason why the old time pilots are a whole lot better at these older planes because these newer ones are basically refined aircraft with abs and vehicle stabiility systems. Race car drivers don't use any of that crap...

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Alright hold your horses gentlemen, and keep this in mind:

1. Up until now the ingame F-14 has had too low a limit on its automatic sweep function, i.e. the wings currently won't sweep neither back nor foward past 4.5 to 5 G's. In reality the sweep rate hadn't even halfed at 7.5 G's where the wings were still sweeping at 4 deg/sec.

2. This error has been acknowledged AND recitified by Heatblur internally and we will most likely see this fix coming with the next patch

So what does this mean? It means that with the next patch you can expect to see a marked improvement to the F-14's maneuverability in terms of turning, as by then the automatic wing sweep will function at well past 7.5 G's in dogfights, making sure the wings are always in the optimum position for best L : D ratio.

Oh really? Didn’t know that, thanks!

lmao nah i wouldnt bet on it

there are only a few people on this forum who spin the cope machine as hard as hummingbird does

What the heck is WVR?

What the heck is WVR?

Within visual range - Air combat manoeuvring. “Dogfighting”

*insert Viper gif that I can’t get to work here*

Oh really? Didn’t know that, thanks!

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3854983&postcount=75

What the heck is WVR?

Within Visual Range

F14 vs F/A-18 + JHMCS + AIM-9X is a death sentence. It's stupid to think otherwise. The Hornet has incredible nose authority and can afford to lose all speed to get a HOBS shot off that the 14 won't be able to contend with.

Now, if you give them both AIM-9Ls, or guns only, it's a totally different ballgame. Either one can win, and if both are flown well, it's likely going to come down to whoever gets the forward quarter shot with the missile or the high-aspect crossing gun shot.

F-14 has the energy, Hornet has the nose authority. Make the other guy play your game long enough and you'll win.

F14 vs F/A-18 + JHMCS + AIM-9X is a death sentence. It's stupid to think otherwise. The Hornet has incredible nose authority and can afford to lose all speed to get a HOBS shot off that the 14 won't be able to contend with.

 

Now, if you give them both AIM-9Ls, or guns only, it's a totally different ballgame. Either one can win, and if both are flown well, it's likely going to come down to whoever gets the forward quarter shot with the missile or the high-aspect crossing gun shot.

 

F-14 has the energy, Hornet has the nose authority. Make the other guy play your game long enough and you'll win.

We tried it guns only - same people flying, same result. First time he ever got me in a guns kill :music_whistling:

He was thrilled, I was not haha

lmao nah i wouldnt bet on it

 

there are only a few people on this forum who spin the cope machine as hard as hummingbird does

What is that even supposed to mean?

If you want to argue with one of the designers be my guest:

SsUCixAeZ0A

The ability to soundly thrash a double superior is what put people like “Heater” and “Hoser” on the highest level of the Pilot pantheon.

The ability to soundly thrash a double superior is what put people like “Heater” and “Hoser” on the highest level of the Pilot pantheon.

You guys sure live in a different world.

Joe Satrapa died last weekend. A little get together on his behalf at the Oceana O'Club in mid May.

Good points, and generally about how I feel. I too love this airplane, and this module. I’m just perhaps a bit disappointed in the performance of the aircraft, maybe I unrealistically expected too much.

 

As for bugging out, I’ve tried it against hornets when I just couldn’t get the advantage - while I was able to outrun the aircraft, I couldn’t outrun his AIM9X :lol: (though once or twice I was actually able to do that - this plane is fast!)

 

 

 

Even going vertical, the Hornet manages to keep up, which surprised me as well.

 

I should clarify - in the setups we’ve tried, it’s been 2 AIM9 each, full fuel for the Tomcat and just over half for the hornet, which seems to give about the same endurance at burner.

let's the cat load half fuel

Good points, and generally about how I feel. I too love this airplane, and this module. I’m just perhaps a bit disappointed in the performance of the aircraft, maybe I unrealistically expected too much.

 

As for bugging out, I’ve tried it against hornets when I just couldn’t get the advantage - while I was able to outrun the aircraft, I couldn’t outrun his AIM9X :lol: (though once or twice I was actually able to do that - this plane is fast!)

 

 

 

Even going vertical, the Hornet manages to keep up, which surprised me as well.

 

I should clarify - in the setups we’ve tried, it’s been 2 AIM9 each, full fuel for the Tomcat and just over half for the hornet, which seems to give about the same endurance at burner.

Right here, you already start very far from "similar" circumstances.

(The F-14 empty weight almost doubles the Hornet's.)

A much more balanced set, for the comparison you're experimenting, would be for both fighters:

- 50 % internal fuel (again, for both);

- 2 x AIM-9 L/M.

Otherwise it isn't a balanced comparison, and will not make sense.

Makes zero sense To have the tomcat at full fuel and hornet at half fuel...

Load the Cat up with 50% fuel, 2x sidewinders and remember remove the belly pylons.

Atm I can defeat most other fighters, with the MiG29 being the hardest to handle. But that should improve once the wing sweep system is corrected, as then I don't have to unload to have the wings sweep to the optimum position.

That said even once the wing sweeping is fixed the MiG-29 will probably still be a tough cookie, and perhaps overall superior in the WVR arena. Will probably take the F-16 to dethrone the MiG29 in the WVR arena.

The fuel imbalance was to provide both with roughly the same max endurance at burner. Because of the cats higher fuel flow, it required more fuel. So in one metric, this is a fair comparison, no?

In honesty, I’d forgotten the mission was set up that way. I’m interested to try with full bags on the hornet, as that is 5000lbs, or 10xMK82 worth of extra weight!

swing wing aircraft are a heavy way to answer the question "how do I have a delta wing shape for faster than the speed of sound and a different shaped wing for better manoeuvrability below the speed of sound."

the FA-18/ f-35 (mig 29/su-27) use a modified delta wing shape with leading edge wing extensions (LERX) that modify airflow across the wing when below the speed of sound. so its a delta when above the sound barrier and not a delta below the sound barrier. AS AOA changes with speed.

the f14 physically changes the shape of its wing to achieve a similar effect. but at much greater cost in weight. delta shape for fast, non-delta for slow.

the British and French use a true delta shape wing and control airflow across it using canards mounted in front of (and slightly above) the wing.

so moving LERX rather than fixed. at high AOA and low speeds the canards direct air parallel to the wing so the delta wing does not stall and control surfaces remain usable.

which gives insane manoeuvrability and great super cruise efficiency. because its a true delta.

but you need a computer to fly it and good software to get the most out of it..

anyway nobody has made a true swing wing since the 80's because they are obsolete..

its better to change the airflow across the wing instead of change the whole shape of the wing..

on the fly..

the fact you lose in WVR to everything is not a bug..

why training became so important in the top gun program.. making up for deficiencies..