the non existent communication is getting rather annoying

It's funny you should say that. My wife just asked me how the weekly Skype development meetings are going.

Dude.:doh:

Quoted for truth.

 

I'd hate to think of the amount of reassurance you guys ask of your wives if y'all can't remain objective about this situation. ;)

You and Chivas miss the point, this isn't just an issue about the frequency of the updates. There is a lack of communication by RRG and Luthier when it comes to pretty much everything.

There are people who have not received their promised rewards like the P-51 Mustang key, and every contact by them to RRG and Luthier has gone completely unanswered. There are people who have have received no word on the paypal donations or their rewards - silence from RRG and Luthier. We had an IndieGoGo donation page that could have potentially been a fraud, but when even a moderator attempted to get a hold of Luthier for comment nothing happened. Luthier promised to get a community manager involved - no word whatsoever afterwards. Luthier held a contest for T-shirt designs - no word whatsoever afterwards. Luthier promised Skype updates - nothing. Even the most patient among us are forced to recognize that Luthier and RRG have a communication problem.

Oh I dont deny the communication issues...

Solve that one and everything else will likely sort itself out.

Perhaps he is busy learning Spanish!

 

 

;)

I'm happy he, at least, has time to learn Spanish. lol How in the world did you find that one?

We are getting relatively regular updates every two or three weeks, which should be more than enough this early in the development. Weekly updates may be doable later in the development. There is no doubt that the development could crash and burn, but I wouldn't worry to much unless nothing is heard for a month or so. We know they are still working on the aircraft, website, and manuals, but there was a cryptic statement from a Normandy terrain RRG employee (past?) with some kind of reference to the EDGE graphic engine has sent up red flags.

sorry but here i have to strongly disagree...

what we get are irregular monologue updates, mind the last two about the ukraine and a flugzeugvernichter.i have tv at home with about a dozen news channels, and as dramatic and scary the news are, im not waiting three weeks for an update to then hear about those incidents, when all i want to hear is news about the sim i have invested in...

well and the flugzeugvernichter update...well thats almost as posting an update where a young guy plays the banjo on youtube(you know what im talking about chivas, you have been there)

the thing is, there are many people, me included, who backed this project mainly, because luthier promised repeatedly, regular interaction and dialogues with the community.i wouldnt have backed the project without those promises, as i still remember his former project, and his way to communicate...

btw, its not that early in development anymore,or at least it shouldnt be...werent we promised an alpha in february?

and yeah i could understand delays, although he repeatedly claimed that in this project no delays should occour as all their tasks are well known.

but what i cant understand is, that there was not one single word about the delay.

he doesnt show up on the forum at all, there is just no way for us to communicate with him, as he doesnt answer questions on the kickstarter page either, nor answers emails.

there are people who backed a 1000$ or even more, sure they deserve to get their skype-dev updates.

and its not that this was only for us to be informed, but that this promised interaction could lead to a better product in the end.

what about the map sdk?again, no word about this anymore.

ive already seen some posts about a few bugs about the cockpits, but im pretty convinced, that Luthier doesnt know about them, as he just never shows up...

nobody is asking him to spend hours on the forums every day...a few minutes a week, answering a couple of questions, sharing ideas, and maybe ask a couple of questions as there is lots of knowledge available here..thats all we want.

and its definitely not impossible to do so...Yo-Yo is the perfect example.he shows up almost every day, scans the forums, and answers a few questions, and gets in touch with the community...a perfect example of good communication with your customers, and a testimony of passion.

Honestly I share the same opinion as DavidRed and many of the Bakers of KickStarte. I am also Baker and I put my money on this project, honestly deserve a respect from RRG Studios, this silence does not help and many do not want to start losing "faith" in something that is becoming highly suspect.

There are many ways to improve communication, and the Bakers did not want this to be an ongoing "Valve Time" and goodbye the confidence in the project.

First, because this lack of news and the coldness of the press, quite possibly affect the respect we have not only this project, but in the future, to all others, whether sponsors, 3rd parties or the same ED. Nor did we want a situation like Kinney Studios and F-35 (it's just an example), in which the lack of confidence in the project, affected the outcome of the KickStarter.

A promise is not fulfilled and no longer speak of "broken promises, announcements or plans" literally could say this is like a marriage, "for good and evil," and for this, the first is the "trust."

If RRG is in trouble, we would like to know, the community is more understandable than some believe, surely we'll know understanding.

Only a 10 minutes to week can be perfect, RRG, have faith in their bakers, we are not mad dogs waiting to dismember meat.

There are people who have not received their promised rewards like the P-51 Mustang key, and every contact by them to RRG and Luthier has gone completely unanswered. There are people who have have received no word on the paypal donations or their rewards - silence from RRG and Luthier.

I would think that given the recent revelations of as yet unexplained (but you can make a guess) malfeasance with respect to the Mig-21 and some of its backers' pledges that RRG would want to get on top of these extremely reasonable concerns.

You can hate on big companies like EA or Valve, but when they take your money its usually pretty easy to get answers from them about stuff, even if its to say you can take your request for a refund and stuff it. When little guys have to lean on their devoted communities to secure funding well in advance of any meaningful delivery it always leaves a bad taste in your mouth to see that same community clamour for the most basic of respect for their need for information, not even just about the project but the state of their financial investment and corresponding benefits.

I haven't pledged to this project but I am interested in it. I'm interested in all of the DCS third party projects and it will make me wonder some if I have to take into account possibilities of if not malicious, at least passively neglectful customer service that leads to at the very least a mild anxiety about the security of the promises you've been given.

These are actual contracts between customer and seller. To break them is no small thing, even if to many of us it could be easily brushed aside as "just a few dollars" or similarly ignored by giving them the benefit of the doubt. Even if there are unforeseen issues the simplest and often more satisfying solution is for the party involved to just say "Oops, something came up, sorry guys, we're gonna have to change the timeline on this" or something. VEAO has done a great job of this.

Its kind of like dating. Communication makes things so much easier, and a lack of communication turns you into a spiteful paranoid bastard.

Bit of a rant, but not inflammatory I don't think. This does influence my bearing towards becoming a customer. I'm quite the fan of customer service, and ruthlessly unforgiving of poor iterations of it.

It's funny you should say that. My wife just asked me how the weekly Skype development meetings are going.

Allow me to back peddle for a moment, are you saying that you as a "big hitter investor" have not received any communication about regular skype meetings?

If so I stand corrected and can very much understand your frustration.

As to the other issues

P51 keys :- It probably went into your spam mail and got deleted which is out of RRG's control and I do hope this is addressed eventually.

EDGE SDK:- EDGE isn't ready so SDK isn't ready which is out of RRG's control.

Indiegogo scam:- Common sense dictates this was a scam and if you couldn't figure that out you've got no chance cold starting a DCS aircraft.

T-shirt competition :- No timescale for announcing a winner was ever given and it really is a non-issue.

Community manager :- No website = no community manger required. But i read that work has begun on the website in earnest.

Alpha in February :- Planning Fallacy, Hofstadter's law and the Ninety nine rule. EDGE isn't finished, out of RRG's control.

Why won't he talk to us!!? :- Because we all go into a feeding frenzy and generate more questions that MUST be answered in one week or the sky will fall!! Its some kind of self-referential exponential curve and by the end of it it is somehow Luthiers responsibility to come round and brush our hair before we go to bed.

I wouldn't have invested in this project if it wasn't in cooperation with ED. ED's involvement gave me the confidence that it will be finished to a high standard and delivered reasonably late due to unforeseen complications integrating the new IG with DCS world:D

werent we promised an alpha in february?

Oh yes, I had forgotten about that. From the Kickstarter page:

"ALPHA Tier 1. Everything at the $10 ORIGINAL level, plus a digital copy of all flyable aircraft in the initial release, plus ALPHA ACCESS.

Estimated delivery: Feb 2014"

Of course it's only the 5th of March, and delays always happen. But it would be nice to know a bit more, and get a new estimate. A realistic one.

Maybe I should just change my support policy into "When It's Ready"?

Why won't he talk to us!!? :- Because we all go into a feeding frenzy and generate more questions that MUST be answered in one week or the sky will fall!! Its some kind of self-referential exponential curve and by the end of it it is somehow Luthiers responsibility to come round and brush our hair before we go to bed.

Yea but you forget that they said they'd communicate. They said things like "Alpha prob in Feb" and stuff like that, and so when you say things it behooves you to follow up on what you said, either to do as you said or to communicate how what was said before is not possible now.

Its rather petulant to say that since people are babies on the internet its perfectly fine for a company that has taken people's money to outright ignore them when asking for information about things they were promised information on.

Here's an idea. If some company wants to ask people on the internet for money they have to take with that money all the whiny bitchy nonsense that comes with people on the internet who have expectations generated by having been asked for money. If this was merely a matter of them showing off art for a privately funded project that'd be one thing, but its clearly not.

You equating fulfilling the terms of a contract, in good faith, to being babied is absurd, and I wonder how people can be so cavalier about things like this, especially after seeing what happened with the Mig-21 fiasco.

Anyway, my money isn't caught up in this so I don't want to grandstand, I just can't help myself with some commentary though.

Allow me to back peddle for a moment, are you saying that you as a "big hitter investor" have not received any communication about regular skype meetings?

 

If so I stand corrected and can very much understand your frustration.

 

As to the other issues

 

P51 keys :- It probably went into your spam mail and got deleted which is out of RRG's control and I do hope this is addressed eventually.

EDGE SDK:- EDGE isn't ready so SDK isn't ready which is out of RRG's control.

 

Indiegogo scam:- Common sense dictates this was a scam and if you couldn't figure that out you've got no chance cold starting a DCS aircraft.

 

T-shirt competition :- No timescale for announcing a winner was ever given and it really is a non-issue.

 

Community manager :- No website = no community manger required. But i read that work has begun on the website in earnest.

 

Alpha in February :- Planning Fallacy, Hofstadter's law and the Ninety nine rule. EDGE isn't finished, out of RRG's control.

 

Why won't he talk to us!!? :- Because we all go into a feeding frenzy and generate more questions that MUST be answered in one week or the sky will fall!! Its some kind of self-referential exponential curve and by the end of it it is somehow Luthiers responsibility to come round and brush our hair before we go to bed.

 

 

I wouldn't have invested in this project if it wasn't in cooperation with ED. ED's involvement gave me the confidence that it will be finished to a high standard and delivered reasonably late due to unforeseen complications integrating the new IG with DCS world:D

P51 keys certainly didnt go into the spam folder, as some have received them....personally, for myself i know that it didnt went into my spam folder, but i just havent received it, i dont care too much for it, as i own it already, but i know about a dozen persons who just havent received their keys either...no spam folder problem, but unfortunately just RRG problem to deliver what they promised.MACADEMIC and hundreds of other people- are you so stupid to have not looked into your spam folder :)

EDGE isnt ready, but a word or two about the sdk, and how he really wants to realise his plan to work as a group to expand the map or make new ones couldnt hurt.planning in advance could safe lots of time!but interaction with the community would be required.the sooner the better.

indiegogo, well very probably a scam, but if you run a company, and another person tries to rip off your potential customers with your "name", you better make an official statement that its not you.

t-shirt competition, dont know now whether this is the same as the logo competition, but this has ended in fall last year...still no news about it whatsoever.

community manager...what the heck has a community manager to do with the webiste they are creating?he could be as useful here as on any other forum, site.

alpha and edge,...again not necessarily directly connected with each other...as luthier himself said, they will robably not deliver a whole package at once, but the alpha will be released in steps, meaning at first probably only one plane,...this could well fly in the current engine, it is actually but only as AI already.

why wont he talk to us?:doh: you dont get it.and unfortunately he seems not to understand the potential of communication either.the thing is, he promised it several times, and didnt deliver at all.though, this time he is bound to it. at least the skype-dev updates are one form, where its explicitly stated as a reward...Merlin how are the updates?

T-shirt competition :- No timescale for announcing a winner was ever given and it really is a non-issue.

It's best that he not make a promise in the first place, but once made, he should follow up on it and offer some excuse... You may have missed this, both contest were to end by November, tee shirt was never opened, company logo was never closed:

The PROCESS:

Let's keep this thread to submissions only. Please use the existing unofficial thread for discussions. Feel free to edit your submission here any time.

We'll run this until October 15th, and then I'll select the logos I personally like the best, and then we'll have a poll.

The winner of the general vote goes on everything.

The author of the winning logo receives a prize equivalent to the Kickstarter MATRIX Tier 8 (two copies of the finished game plus any SEVEN extras, plus a special stand-alone mention in the game credits as DCS WWII Logo By)

Once we have the logo, I'll do the same for a T-shirt design contest. We'll run it from the 15th till the 30th. We'll put it up for a vote, and print THREE of the top designs as voted for by backers. There will of course be rewards there as well.

If you want, you can start thinking about T-shirts already. I really want to make it something better than a cheap flimsy shirt with a logo plastered onto it slightly askew

As i say I do very much agree that those who invested 1000$ and up definately have cause to complain as weekly communication was paid for as part of the package.

The problem with the P51 keys is a labour intensive problem to solve and I do feel for those who have not received theirs but some have so its not like this is a blatant "fraud" were no-one has got what they paid for. There has been some kind of glitch in delivery of the emails for these people.

My suggestion to them would be to contact KS about the failure to provide what was paid for and see if they can recover the funds they invested as this constitutes a breach of contract.

If all the the Alpha has to be in order to satisfy customers is flying a "DCS Warbird" over any map available then the Alpha has begun already with many having got their P51 keys. For me, I would have considered the Normandy map to be the most essential element of the Alpha release. "Probably February" is an estimate timescale and RRG are most definately not allowed to say anything about how much longer it'll take as its ED's decision. ED have a decent track record of not saying anything until the concrete has set.

I never actually stated that communication is "babying" the community just that it inevitably snow balls into personal abuse of the Developer or other forum users. Answers breed more questions and it really is a no-win situation for the Developer, interact directly with community and get flamed or don't interact and get flamed.

I have a gut feeling that once the new IG is ready communication will be more forthcoming and community input into the development process can begin. I just don't think they need our input right now and having nothing to output as they are laying the foundations of the project.

I will shut up now as I don't have the time or the inclination to argue.

To those who have not got what they paid for, I feel your pain and all I can say is "Trust in ED and ED shall provide for ye".

If all the the Alpha has to be in order to satisfy customers is flying a "DCS Warbird" over any map available then the Alpha has begun already with many having got their P51 keys.

well, the P51 is a finished module, and therefore cannot be in any case considered as alpha version of DCS WWII as long as its flying in the old map...if they release the alpha version of the fw190 though, or any other announced wwii warbird, then this can be considered as the start of the alpha version even without the normandy map, although this would be of course preferable.

but again, i think for most, its not the delays, but lack of communication which are worrying to say at least.cause the delays are already pretty obvious.they havent been able to create a webiste within half a year, but are aiming towards a release version of the sim this fall...

im sure most can cope with a delay, but not with the total ignorance luthier is showing.

I've said this a few times before if I recall, that it doesn't matter what's happening or the reasons why progress is not being done/shown, if it's something from ED's part or RRG's part. It is not ok to leave people who inversted their money in the dark. Even though some people stated that even interacting with the community the developers would end up flooded with questions and answer-hungry kids, it's still better to show that you are active in the project and that you care about the people who, again, trusted you with their money. Even if there's no actual progress to show, just by saying a few things about the project in a regular basis you are already giving the community attention. Showing that you're still around regulary to the people who invested money in you and avoid making them feel uneasy IS a necessary part of development, a very important part, to say the least. :doh:

 

 

Answers breed more questions and it really is a no-win situation for the Developer, interact directly with community and get flamed or don't interact and get flamed.

 

in this case i again have to strongly disagree...

i guess i can assume, that we all here in the end want a WWII sim, which is successfull, and alive for years to come...

the fact that they started this as a kickstarter project, shows, and is also confirmed by luthier, that they needed funds, to deliver a solid product.

well, the kickstarter campaign hasnt been as successfull as luthier first expected...i have to say it was more successfull than i have expected considering his communication towards the community with his former project...i spoke to lots of persons, who just didnt back the project, because of former lack of communication.they just lost trust in him...

now the kickstarter was successfull...

but they also said, that there is the possibilty of future kickstarter-like funding projects for future modules, like a fully modeled B17( a dream would come true)

now 6months later, luthier could have rebuilt a lot of trust, and regain lots of interest of former fans....and a future funding project could be way more successfull than the current one.

BUT at the current state, who would back another project of this guy?:lol:

nothing to win/lose with/without communication?

+1000 MAC

:thumbup:

EDGE SDK was just a thing to quickly raise more money before the end of the KS campaign...IMO.;)

I´m absolutely with you DavidRed and all other wo anticipated more/interactive communication.

Hopefully Ilya will hear us someday...

Great idea to make this an orderly collection of constructive proposals.

Pretty much everything has been said here until this point. Although I´m not personally eligible for skype updates in my eyes there has been too much neglection of the commitments made by RRG during and after the campaign. Even if things directly related to code and engine development are hindered by ED´s progress, there are more things to report on, and even if not, a quick comment about that is all it takes.

Just as an example, the team behind Battle over Stalingrad manages their weekly (!) updates very well and they´re relatively early in development, too.

Thus my main concern was and is: improve communication and keep the channels open like it was outlined at several occasions during and after the campaign. Get somebody who is really respnsible for this and not scurrying around in places where there is no internet 90% of the time. Stick to this model.

The model of crowdfunding is based on mutual interests - information/participation vs. development capital. An attitude of irresponsability and negligence towards one side might lead lead to losing the communities trust which is pretty much the worst thing that can happen - for all of us here. The management of the RRG forum section and this thread have been (initial) indicators of such a split.

funny thing in this poll is,that it mentions Oleg....didnt he say in one of the kickstarter videos, that he will take care of community issues.is he even registered on this forum? :)

i mean, not that i miss him, but thats another suspicious thing about this kickstarter project...

funny thing in this poll is,that it mentions Oleg....didnt he say in one of the kickstarter videos, that he will take care of community issues.is he even registered on this forum? :)

i mean, not that i miss him, but thats another suspicious thing about this kickstarter project...

Oleg did say that he still reads the various forums, but I don't think that he ever recovered from the hacking of IL-2

The problem with Oleg in the video from KS, is that the only fire that is burning is at the fireplace :music_whistling:

I fully agree what has been said by Red&Co !!

Good luck with that, this thread will be a magnet for the Luthier bashers.

Guys, lets focus on our goals, and try and remain constructive, this is about RRG and DCS WWII and the top 5 issues/question we would like addressed.

With all respect we need Ilya and Ilya needs us. And we are here .. as simple as that.