IFV Sniping Jets

I'll try and keep this short, as I know its been brought up in the past. A friend of mine said that this is a "Known issue, and will be changed in the future" but past posts I've read have had the behavior defended, saying things like "BMP-2 has an AA sight (and neglecting to mention this sight is for use versus helicopters primarily, not fixed wing...)

I was shot down puling out of a 4g dive last night on the Hideout mission by a BMP2, moving at nearly 400mph. I was nearly 2km from the BMP2 that hit me. I hate being one to cite anecdotes, but its something that alot of people have had happen from my experiences talking to other players.

Is this a known problem, or something that is WAD? Its easy enough to mod, but doing so is effectively cheating...

I also feel that the BMP cannon and the machine gunners of tanks are simply too accurate even at low AI difficulty settings. I don't necessarily have a problem with them firing at aircraft, but as it stands now they are almost more effective than Shilkas in terms of hitting their target. They will hit you at high altitudes (~4,000 feet in some cases) and during high G jinks in both the vertical and horizontal axis. At times I have had to factor in BMP's as virtual air defenses when designing missions and a threat environment, something that should not happen at least for aircraft.

Habu

This is the major flaw in DCS ground AI. The ground AI by default have superhuman situational awareness and response times. The only reliable way to overcome this is to implement some scripting which some do.

I'm not an expert on IFV combat, but would it be realistic to put a hundred+ 30MM on top of a BMP, even if you don't kill him, and expect perfect return fire? I would bet on the crew being shocked and suppressed.

I'll try and keep this short, as I know its been brought up in the past. A friend of mine said that this is a "Known issue, and will be changed in the future" but past posts I've read have had the behavior defended, saying things like "BMP-2 has an AA sight (and neglecting to mention this sight is for use versus helicopters primarily, not fixed wing...)

I totally agree with you regarding AI accurancy. And to the best of my knowledge, the BMP-2 doesn't even have an AA sight.

I have been told several years ago that this cannot be fixed without breaking the AI's ability to hit ground targets. So I think the following improvements would be needed:

-For AI "manual" aiming, increase the error in lead exponentially with target angular velocity. Judging lead on a 20 km/h tank is a lot easier than judging lead on a 500 km/h aircraft.

-Increase the range error on airborne target. The range of ground targets can be quickly determined observing ground impact of your own fire. Judging the correct superelevation against aircraft is very hard without any visual feedback.

-Introduce Volume Fire technique for manually aimed weapons.

I totally agree with you regarding AI accurancy. And to the best of my knowledge, the BMP-2 doesn't even have an AA sight.

 

I have been told several years ago that this cannot be fixed without breaking the AI's ability to hit ground targets. So I think the following improvements would be needed:

 

-For AI "manual" aiming, increase the error in lead exponentially with target angular velocity. Judging lead on a 20 km/h tank is a lot easier than judging lead on a 500 km/h aircraft.

-Increase the range error on airborne target. The range of ground targets can be quickly determined observing ground impact of your own fire. Judging the correct superelevation against aircraft is very hard without any visual feedback.

-Introduce Volume Fire technique for manually aimed weapons.

The BMP-2 does have an AA sight. Here's that that translates to ingame:

-- human gunner, hardpoint mount, BMP-2, M2, M6, Marder, LAV-25
WSN_4 = {}
WSN_4.deviation_error_azimuth = 0.001
WSN_4.deviation_error_elevation = 0.001
WSN_4.deviation_error_speed_sensor = 0.23
WSN_4.deviation_error_stability = 0.01
WSN_4.deviation_error_distance = 0.1

Compare that to:

-- human gunner, hardpoint mount, ZU-23
WSN_3 = {}
WSN_3.deviation_error_azimuth = 0.001
WSN_3.deviation_error_elevation = 0.001
WSN_3.deviation_error_speed_sensor = 0.20
WSN_3.deviation_error_stability = 0.003
WSN_3.deviation_error_distance = 0.1

And versus the superior:

-- automatic gunner, hardpoint mount, Tunguska, Vulcan, Kortik, Phalanx, Gepard, AK630, Shilka
WSN_5 = {}
WSN_5.deviation_error_azimuth = 0.0007
WSN_5.deviation_error_elevation = 0.0007
WSN_5.deviation_error_speed_sensor = 0.005
WSN_5.deviation_error_stability = 0.001
WSN_5.deviation_error_distance = 0.005

There really isnt a gigantic difference between Autocannons/MG's versus targets and radar-controlled dedicated AA guns currently versus those same targets. Certainly not what you'd expect, especially for manually aimed ones.

Actually there IS a huge difference between radar controlled units and the rest, here's the same numbers side by side.

(note the number of zer0's)

parameter ____Human___________automatic radar___________difference %

azimuth ______0.01_____________0.001___________________163.6364%

elevation _____0.001____________0.0007__________________35.2941%

speedsensor __0.20_____________0.005___________________190.2439%

stability ______0.003____________0.001___________________100%

distance ______0.1_____________0.005____________________180.9524%

percent difference between autocannons/mg's

speed sensor 13.9535%

stability 107.6923%

Zer0's can be deceiving, especially decimal Zer0's.;)

The BMP-2 does have an AA sight.

Yes I was wrong, the commander has a 1PZ-3 AA-sight. Though that only means this is a wide angle sight to visually search for aircraft when the hatches are closed. I highly doubt this sight has any automatic lead or superelevation capability whatsoever.

Yes I was wrong, the commander has a 1PZ-3 AA-sight. Though that only means this is a wide angle sight to visually search for aircraft when the hatches are closed. I highly doubt this sight has any automatic lead or superelevation capability whatsoever.

You're correct :) Its an AA sight mainly intended for use versus helicopters.

Alot of people see the words "AA Sight" and imagine "Oh, its an AA gun now!", but as you've noted, that is far from the truth.

After a bit of math the BMP gunner must be presighted! 2000m distance with a plane crossing at 400kts means he needs to aim at a point somewhere 600 - 800m in front of the plane when applying ballistics. That would be some 15° -20° lead!!!

The nozzle speed of the BMP gun is 960m/s so assuming 1000m/s for simplicity and judging loss of inertia etc. at about 1/5 to 3/4 per second we end up with 250m/s so let's say the overall time to fly 2000m for the bullets is 3-4sec seems reasonable?

That means the plane travels 600m-800m from the time the gunner hits the trigger!

...and we assume 90° angle to target no wind, no jinking etc.

Now how exactly is this magic AA-Sight working??? :music_whistling:

P.S.: Before somebody with a grade in physics chimes in and rips my calculation apart, I know very well there is a lot to factor and it is nowhere near the actual precise calculation, but it should be sufficient to get an idea about the likelihood of hittng a fast, jinking plane at 2000m distance, nearly everytime!:smartass:

I fear BMP ground fire more than AAA fire. I watched someone fly through 4 or 5 simultaneous AAA streams and not get hit. I've flown in against the same number of BMPs spread out over a small area and been hit maybe 3 times out of 5 while jinking at over 300 knots.

I might add those BMPs were lighting me up in the dead of night.

Its pretty amusing.

+1

Yeah, I use stand-off munitions to take down BMPs, and I go rockets and guns against hard armor and dedicated AAA. The odd of surving a gun battle with a BMP-2 are pretty low.

At times I have had to factor in BMP's as virtual air defenses when designing missions and a threat environment

This.

Actually there IS a huge difference between radar controlled units and the rest, here's the same numbers side by side.

(note the number of zer0's)

 

parameter ____Human___________automatic radar___________difference %

 

azimuth ______0.01_____________0.001___________________163.6364%

elevation _____0.001____________0.0007__________________35.2941%

speedsensor __0.20_____________0.005___________________190.2439%

stability ______0.003____________0.001___________________100%

distance ______0.1_____________0.005____________________180.9524%

 

 

percent difference between autocannons/mg's

 

speed sensor 13.9535%

stability 107.6923%

 

Zer0's can be deceiving, especially decimal Zer0's.;)

So can be percentages:

Is a radar really just 2 times as precise in aiming and measuring speed as a human eye at maximum distance?

Can a radar-guided gun effectively engage a target at just 1.8 times the range of the human eye under any circumstances?

Is a human aimed gun just 3 times as precise as fully computerized targeting system?

BMPs kill aircraft far too easily

Anyone else notice that for a while (last few versions) ground vehicles, in particular the BMP-2/3, are obscenely effective against fixed wing aircraft? I have a considerably more difficult time taking out a BMP in an A-10 or Su-25 than I do for a Vulcan, Shilka or SA-9/13. Gun/rocket runs are essentially suicidal if there is more than more BMP-2/3 in the area. They are extremely accurate and can shoot at a further effective range than the A-10 can when not using AGM-65s. Even when flying a faster aircraft like the Su-27 or MiG-29 I get shot down from BMPs and not dedicated AA guns.

While I am sure a BMP/AFV can target and engage a low flying helicopter I find it hard to believe they are so effective against attack aircraft.

I hope with 2.0 there will be some adjustments as I have written off playing the game in a ground attack role until it is fixed. With luck, air to air missiles won't be botched in 2.0 so I can enjoy the new flight model for the Su-27.

Yah, it's a definite bug, been ridiculous with them as of late.

Well, had completely the opposite, but that was some time ago : i could land right next to an enemy BMP, with my KA50. The thing wouldn't fire at me at all, even a few meter from me.... Unless i hit the ground. At the very moment I put my wheels on the ground, i died :)

Its been reported for tweaking, BUT, if you are getting too close, its a fate you deserve ;)

Maybe, but this is marketed as a flight simulator. The abilities of the BMP-2 to shoot down maneuvering Su-27s with minimal effort is not realistic and has no place in a so called simulator. If 1960s era IFVs were this good at taking down aircraft in the real world the Shilka and similar units would never have been invented. ;)

Ignoring simulator aspects, even as a game, the BMP's ability to shoot down aircraft is absurd compared to dedicated AA weapons. It out ranges the A-10's 30mm as well as any unguided rockets/bombs. Which essentially makes some of the flyable aircraft near worthless from a gameplay perspective.

Much of this could be fixed with proper line of site. Low flying aircraft should not be visible and engaged through trees. I have given up any low level flight until this is fixed. And yes- they are too accurate even then

So having the aircrafts auto-explode if they get close to some ground units would be allright, because they deserve it? Sorry, but that's how your last post sounded like.

Seems to me like the BMPs compute a more accurate firing solution as I fly by, compared to the Shilkas. The Shilkas seem to fire behind me most of the time while the BMPs are right on.

But that said, I haven't had any trouble with them. I occasionally get within their firing arc when I'm in the A-10, but down that low I'm never flying in a straight line so they don't hit me. If I do decide to fly nice and straight, I get what I deserve for sure!

Seems to me like the BMPs compute a more accurate firing solution as I fly by, compared to the Shilkas. The Shilkas seem to fire behind me most of the time while the BMPs are right on.

 

But that said, I haven't had any trouble with them. I occasionally get within their firing arc when I'm in the A-10, but down that low I'm never flying in a straight line so they don't hit me. If I do decide to fly nice and straight, I get what I deserve for sure!

Haven't tested it myself, but Indeed BMP-2 should not be more accurate than a Shilka.

BMP-2 seems a little too quick and accurate agains A-10 for example