Cruising is painful..

Hi, I just did a 1 hr 23 min flight from Beslan to Novorossiysk at 9 km altitude, and I must say in a mustang, I dont have to touch controls if I use proper trim. Not so the case with Bf-109 K-4.

During the entire flight the following events transpired:

1- Continuous ADI recalibration for uncommanded or tendency to left wing drop.

2- Compass recalibration using infobar heading as reference and magnetic dipping with the slightest of bank (-7 to +7 degree bank on F2 infobar reference).

3- Rudder holding which really hurt my leg soles. Its the only way to keep straight.

4- Throttle versus elevator trim manipulation.

5- VSI/VVI mis-indication of level flight during altitude increase or decrease above 3000 m.

So my questions from all these:

1- What do you use to set the horizon (bank)? Do you use the top of canopy or the gun cross or what? Is this normal behaviour to lose precision? Is it a precise instrument? Because I held manually 0 degree of bank yet the horizontal bar keeps canting.

2- The compass: its showing magnetic, but during cold and dark or runway takeoffs, the compass is displaying a heading within 10-15 degrees from true heading. Goes without saying for level (or at least perceptable level) flying. What is the procedure to use this device? Do I put North on the bezel top? How to make it display true heading?

3- Rudder. Do I need to hold the rudder even during cruise? Also, the sensitivity is horrible that I had to set a curve of 50 so the nudge is just enough to hold a bank and reduce slippage.

4- Elevator trim nose down setting. Is there a guideline or a rule of thumb for speeds for trim setting? I had to keep the stick pushed forward all the time too.

5- VVI mis-indication: Is this an effect of freezing? This was most pronounced at higher than 3000 meter altitude. Altimeter did not suffer this at all, hence I knew by looking at the altitude needle my vertical situation.

My biggest problem is hands (and for that matter, legs) off flying. Is it capable of doing so?

Thanks. I wish Erich Brunotte could answer these questions, but I welcome all replies.

In as far as rudder use goes, the 109 was well known for becoming a true nightmare in terms of permanent application of right or left ( highspeed cruise ) rudder.

Regarding the VVI gauge, I do not have DCS installed and I can't test, but never noticed that ? Do you mean Vertical Speed Indicator measuring 0 m/s when climbing or descending above 3000m ?

Throttle and stab trim at cruise... Were you using recommended between 0,9 and 1,0 ATA for your cruise ? With these settings I sometimes had to actually use tail heavy stab settings instead of full nose heavy.

From what I recall ( been a couple of months since I last used this sim... ) IMO the aileron trim tab should probably be adjusted for cruise. It required left aileron, because it appears to be over correcting for torque effects...

9km altitude? Isn't that a bit off the standard operational altitude? I mean wouldnt the aicraft be easier to control in lower alt.?

So its not abnormal to keep the rudder pushed in, even upwind in your face???

VVI only during climb above 3000 meters. It does not deflect.

As for trim, I did not know there should be a trim up (tail heavy) attitude during cruise. But that would negate the pull on stick most pilots (that I read their works) do.

9k altitude may not be standard but I want to have lots of tail winds to save fuel (which I have set in mission editor, and works just fine).

Well it looks like I have to donate this module to somebody... I mean in P-51D I can let go all controls with my trim box and read a paper or check a map. With this, I can't let go anything... except throttle of course...

So in a nutshell, it does not have a neutral skid throttle setting for hands off rudder and stick.

But in a video by JG... Otto, the pilots say its like rails (meaning you can do a BBQ with your hands off)...

I don't understand.

If the module is realistic you need to give it away because of that? I understand a 90 minute flight may be no fun, but you can still dogfight, strafe, and do short hops with it, right?

I don't know, if I need to go read a news paper while I'm flying I don't think the flying is fun anymore...

So its not abnormal to keep the rudder pushed in, even upwind in your face???

 

VVI only during climb above 3000 meters. It does not deflect.

 

As for trim, I did not know there should be a trim up (tail heavy) attitude during cruise. But that would negate the pull on stick most pilots (that I read their works) do.

 

9k altitude may not be standard but I want to have lots of tail winds to save fuel (which I have set in mission editor, and works just fine).

 

Well it looks like I have to donate this module to somebody... I mean in P-51D I can let go all controls with my trim box and read a paper or check a map. With this, I can't let go anything... except throttle of course...

 

 

So in a nutshell, it does not have a neutral skid throttle setting for hands off rudder and stick.

 

But in a video by JG... Otto, the pilots say its like rails (meaning you can do a BBQ with your hands off)...

109 always had tendency to go left and right rudder had to be applied. Exception beeing high speed when it starts to go to the right. It is a 109. Works as it should

The real Bf 109 had no in-cockpit-adjustable trim for aileron and rudder.

As a consequence the DCS:Bf109-K4 module has none either.

Maybe it´s not the perfect ride for transfer flights.

There have been many discussions about the trim tabs being adjustable on ground and by that one could pre-set for certain cruise speeds. We will see if this is finding its way into the module ...

Anyway to me this sounds like someone complaining that the clutch of his Porsche is so hard to depress, especially if he´s driving in the mud and needs to shift gear so very often ...:music_whistling:

The 109 is no P51! Short range interceptor Vs long range escort fighter.

Didn't you have some issues with your hands or something that made flying sims hard for you? K-4 may not be the module for you because it does require constant attention (rudder/forward stick) to fly straight and level. The Dora may be slightly better for you because it does trim at certain speed/altitudes requiring little attention. The Mustang of course would be the best choice with its trim controls.

Yep, that is absolutely as intended. The 109 was always a beast for long flights.

This is one of the reasons I prefer American warbirds.

what was the typical ferry radius?

what was the typical ferry radius?

EDIT: Nah, check the map. Unless Luftwaffe moved fighters from the exteme Western front to the East, it's more like 2000 km maximum I'd say.

But typical? From the Bayrische Flugzeugwerke factories to an airfield in the Reich, I'd guess. So a couple of hundred kilometers at best, then.

I thought there was a particular speed that gave neutral rudder trim. I seem to recall that the 109 had a bendable trim tab that was preset on the ground to give neutral at speed xyz. In IL2 it was about 50% throttle if my memory isn't playing tricks but does it say anything like that in a real 109 manual?

I thought there was a particular speed that gave neutral rudder trim. I seem to recall that the 109 had a bendable trim tab that was preset on the ground to give neutral at speed xyz. In IL2 it was about 50% throttle if my memory isn't playing tricks but does it say anything like that in a real 109 manual?

And if we fly the K4 in DCS at recommended power settings, and around 400km/h ( if my memory isn't failing ) it'll fly perfectly trimmed and stable.

For all configurations?

For all configurations?

Didin't test with bomb or external tank.

Took off with 85% fuel

you mean hands off @ that power setting? not so much legs off?

Where is the lua to check the exact speed?

I don't think the perfectly stable situation, hands-off, should be possible on such an ww2 fighter.

By design these aircraft weren't made to be that stable, because that would compromise other characteristics, and in particular the 109 and the 190, having no cockpit adjustable aileron and rudder trim tabs imposed an additional compromise...

I believe there would be a speed at which the pilot effort would be minimal for, but at 400+ km/h, if the rolling tendencies are minimal, I believe there will already be a yawing ( to the right at this speed ) tendency that the pilot would have to counter with left foot... If the yaw was more or less stable, then again some stick input would certainly be required, but both forces, specially when the stick was used, would be minimal... I guess this was the best that could be achieved IRL

Even on my glider I can't fly hands off for much long :-)

OK, I got it. Thanks everybody!

See here: 109 myths

- How much rudder did a Messerschmitt pilot have to apply, or was the rudder trim so adjusted that on a defined speed the plane stayed on straight course ?

Antti Tani: I think usually she went right on when doing 400 kmh. During takeoff you had to push the pedal. You got so used to it that you no more paid any attention to it."

- Antti Tani, Finnish fighter ace. 21,5 victories.

See here: 109 myths

Yep, but then, since the roll stick force at that speed was certainly a lot less, as the need to use rudder was reduced near that speed, most probably the pilot was inputting a bit left stick, almost non perceptible, to overcome the increasing tendency to start rolling left as the aileron tab became more effective...

I really don't think a 109 could / can be flown hands off, at any speed, inflight :-) Less force required, that is for sure, but even on a perfect meteo day, with no winds and or turbulence, taking hands and feet off the controls wouldn't stand for long, I believe ...

For a 109E, but nonetheless:

The airplane is statically stable both stick fixed and stick free.

RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304.

And the 109G:

"- How about trimming to level flight?

It flew like on rails even when shooting."

- Väinö Pokela, Finnish fighter ace and Me 109 trainer. 5 victories.

For a 109E, but nonetheless:

 

 

 

And the 109G:

Unnecessary joke removed... Sorry!