Joystick spring & precision

Hi,

I have a T16000M, and I plan to upgrade to something better later on.

It's input is really precise and linear vs stick position, but its weak point is IMHO the springs, which are slightly too strong to my taste and not adjustable, and above all, the extremely non-linear spring force in the center. It takes a significant force to start moving the joystick from the center, in other words if you could draw force vs position curve, there would be a high and steep step in the center. The advantage of this is the stick returns very efficiently to a neutral position, without jiggle. The drawback is it's difficult to control precisely very small movements around the center, such as when refueling. I'd like a joystick where you could continuously move from one end to the other without feeling any discontinuity at the center.

1)Is there a possible mod of the 16000M for avoiding this?

2)How are higher end joysticks such as the Warthog, regarding this?

Thanks!

The warthog is exactly the same as the T16000 in this regard, here is my "review" of it :

To get rid of that you should have a look at what VKB and Virpil offers.

You could also try to mod your T16000 in a similar way as here.

I (hon0) answer the same question here on reddit, and share some more stuff..

I upgraded my VKB GladiatorII w/ the space grip. In the last couple of weeks they released this combination as a purchasable unit.

https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product=gladiator-k

I have the Premium right hand version and it is absolutely fantastic. Specifically, the off center feel you are looking for is perfect. This grip has so many buttons and hats that I don't have them all assigned yet. It doesn't mimic any specific fighter stick so it will work well for any plane. BTW I use it w/ a TM Warthog throttle. The built-in throttle is OK for everything except carrier traps where it doesn't have the long travel needed to make tiny changes.

I'd like a joystick where you could continuously move from one end to the other without feeling any discontinuity at the center.

Get a Virpil WarBRD base and install Avia Sim no-center cams (they come together with the base). I got my TM Warthog grip on my WarBRD base and it's a great combination IMO. VKB is very high quality too, but is incompatible to TM, Virpil and Realsimulator grips as VKB uses a different connector and therefore limits your grip choice significantly. Yes, there are adaptors for the Warthog grip (but not for the Hornet grip yet) to exchange it's connector for a VKB one, but i have never seen them in stock. And i daily observed that for more than 6 months before i scratched VKB. Also Virpil offers their bases separately from the grips, so youre not forced to purchase a Virpil grip. I.e. if you still want to have a metal TM grip (VKB and Virpil grips are all plastic), or even one of the high end Realsimulator grips. If you purchase VKB, you always have to purchase the complete stick (base+grip).

Another option would be the Realsimulator FSSB R3 base, as it has no mechanical gimbal but is force sensitive. Also compatible to TM and Virpil grips. Only issue is the price as the base alone is 450€ ex. VAT, wich is more expensive than the complete Warthog HOTAS

Cheers

The warthog is exactly the same as the T16000 in this regard

Damit, how can they market a high end flight sim stick that has a hard point at the center? I admit this is a feature on space-sim targeted sticks as the T16000 is (you expect a spaceship to flight straight when releasing the grip) but for realistic flight sim ones such as the Warthog, this seems dumb.

Is it still annoying with an extension?

Thanks for all your tips and links, I will carefully read all and probably start by modding the T16K before anything else.

The force sensitive sticks are interesting, but I never had the chance to test one, so I'm reluctant to buy. Unfortunately, all the related fairs have been cancelled this year, so I can't test.

The warthog is exactly the same as the T16000 in this regard, here is my "review" of it :

I'm soo tired of disassembling & reassembling the Warthog stick:cry: (to weaken spring force). Heard of all you reference, tried most. Tried making my own springs ... less said the better. Always afraid of breaking something. Important lesson learned: On reassembly, the rear plate must be removed (& pcb lifted), to tighten the four poles from below as well from top. The four poles cannot wiggle, it'll make the stick wiggle and worse, it probably wears down the screws and threads with time.

Anyway I finally tried tried springs-on-top (see your video below). Been skeptical because 1) it'll probably be to loose, 2) it isn't meant to work this way 3) springs are never meant to be fully compressed and maybe this way they are (might or might not be a concern with these springs). Anyway I finally tried springs-on-top. I found:

1) One cannot add even one washer without loosing stroke (this means springs are definitely fully compressed).

2) It is too loose. a) Resistance is needed. As mentioned mind remembers force better than position. b) Not having return to fixed position, trims are unusable. c) The strong spring protects the joystick from damage reaching full strokes. With as weak resistance as this, it's a matter of time before I'll slam into a stop and break something.

Maybe I'll try binding the spring again (photo below). I did it differently and it didn't work so great. Even small zipties are to big. Sewing thread applied while temporary held with zipties ... didn't work so great. Haven't tried metal wire.

Maybe I'll have to spring (get it?) for Sahaj expensive green spring:mad:. Warthog stock definitely does not work well with helicopters.

For the record. TM Warthog is good except for the stick gimbal, throttle is good, the stick is robust. Flaws are unadjustable spring forces, X & Y axis not separated. And also it's a pain to take apart. Especially taking apart the gimbal fully to clean and re-grease is extremely tricky without breaking something. But apart from that, good reliable stick.

One thing I haven't tried while I had the Warthog stick is to install stronger small springs, more explanation in this post :

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4140258#post4140258

One thing I haven't tried while I had the Warthog stick is to install stronger small springs, more explanation in this post :

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4140258#post4140258

I couldn't find any in the right size so I tried to make my own from piano wire.

I added the small springs from my 1st Warthog base on top the the ones from the 2nd base, and the control is quite good. I would say mostly right up there with my VPC WarBRD and VKB GF2.

The problem with this base is that it doesn’t like light grips. For TM grips everything works fine, but put lighter grips such as VPC Mongoos CM2 on it and stiction can be felt easily.

joysticks dont replicate actual flying your best bet is to find a better stick and an upgrade for it

I moved from the T16000 to the VKB gunfighter MKIII pro.

Best move ever

On reassembly, the rear plate must be removed (& pcb lifted), to tighten the four poles from below as well from top.

Just got a little reminder of this. From top, 1 of the 4 screws felt soft on re-tightening. "F' f* F' I threadened it". No it was spinning at the bottom screw.

Never enjoying taking it apart. The anxiousness of screwing up.

The original spring is so strong, it feels to me, it's threatening the integrity of the whole housing. Is it? I don't know, but I wish the four poles, the screws, all of it, would've been one dimension stronger. M7 instead of M6 or whatever. Another reason to weaken the spring, even if it has to be an expensive "green spring" from Sahaj.

Just got a little reminder of this. From top, 1 of the 4 screws felt soft on re-tightening. "F' f* F' I threadened it". No it was spinning at the bottom screw.

 

Never enjoying taking it apart. The anxiousness of screwing up.

 

The original spring is so strong, it feels to me, it's threatening the integrity of the whole housing. Is it? I don't know, but I wish the four poles, the screws, all of it, would've been one dimension stronger. M7 instead of M6 or whatever. Another reason to weaken the spring, even if it has to be an expensive "green spring" from Sahaj.

I'm using Sahajs blue spring with 35cm extension. No issues, although i think the red one would have been enough.

Get a Virpil WarBRD base and install Avia Sim no-center cams (they come together with the base). I got my TM Warthog grip on my WarBRD base and it's a great combination IMO.

I had a look to the Virpil site waiting for Christmas. I'm not a fan of any of the sticks layout, they are missing a F18/F16/A10 style grip, others either have way too much buttons & hats (constellation,...) or too few and not well suited to my use (VFX, WarBRD). So I might go for a TM F-16 grip, but how does the base react to the heavyweight grip, especially with the no-center cams? Won't it stay hanging to whatever side I have left it?

Realsimulator has nice F-16 grips, but the price is stupidly huge, and they are overfeatured (all buttons as hats is more confusing than anything else, I think). Too bad Virpil doesn't make one, as I'm not necessarily a metal fan (except when it comes to music).

I'm using Sahajs blue spring with 35cm extension. No issues, although i think the red one would have been enough.

Do you have any threshold force discontinuity at the center?

I don't like the Virpil grip designs as well. The Warthog grip is very flippy with the soft springs on the WarBRD base and a bit, but more than acceptable with the heavy springs. I also got the extra heavy springs (sold separately), but haven't tested them yet as i'm very happy with the current setup. The no-center cams don't mean the stick doesen't re-center anymore, but that you can't feel the center anymore. It still recenters perfect. Check the separate Cosmo sim cams in their shop and look at the pictures while choosing between soft center and no center version. There you can see the difference in between soft center and no center.

Realsimulator mainly produces components for NATO training simulators and flight controls for home use are just a small side buisness. The price of their grips has various good reasons, since they provide the same quality as with their professional products. Superb quality and functionality, military grade electronics and materials, unique customer support (they set up a video chat with you to solve problems) and they have very small production numbers. Also their products are developend AND manufactured in Spain, Europe. Not in cheap China. Quality has it's price and one who buys cheap, buys twice. I just pre-ordered their new F-18E grip to replace my TM Hornet grip and i have no doubt it will be the best grip i ever owned.

Do you have any threshold force discontinuity at the center?

Yes a little bit, wich is why i think the red spring would also do the job. But it is still much better than without extension and stock spring.