Viper vs Hornet Radar

We have a Blk.50 anno 2007 AFAIK, which means AN/APG-68 V9.

 

As for the RCS figures, where are you getting those figures from? AFAIK even the small F-16 comes in at 5 sq.m., which is the std. the radar was measured against.

And ED says we have a V5, and I have no reason to doubt them here. And for the RCS, I took that directly from the "F-16C.lua", where'd you get yours?

Well it's echoed across many, but this article goes into a bit more detail:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-apg-68.htm

ED has made if very clear that it's a v5.

In all materials I've seen, the 30% increase is on top of the base radar, not over the v5. The v5 is at 25%, the v9 at 30%.

There's no technology change in the radar that would support a 30% increase - you're not gone from MSA to any type of ESA, the radar power hasn't been increase enough (you would need to quadruple the power, or a combination of significant power increase with significant self noise reduction, antenna size increase etc.).

Forecast international is the most informative source we have on this even though it describes the 66 - but the 66 and 68 are technologically interchangeable when it comes to all the raw stuff that matters for detection range.

And yes, the viper radar over-performs significantly on detection range in game.

There are much better sources on this out there and they were presented in the F-16 radar bug thread.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=272904

Importantly, getting back to the game: Sounds like some people are having a heck of a time picking up targets, and these people need to set up custom missions in the editor to record short tracks demonstrating the given problems ... otherwise there's really nothing to look at and nothing to fix.

PS: Forecast International seems to have removed their archives ... that's unfortunate for us.

ED has made if very clear that it's a v5.

In all materials I've seen, the 30% increase is on top of the base radar, not over the v5. The v5 is at 25%, the v9 at 30%.

Well you're welcome to post it, I can only rely on what I've read.

As for the DCS version using the V5, if true then how can it be a Blk.50 anno 2007 ? A 2007 Blk.50 comes with the V9 according to all I've read so far.

On another note, how should the APG-73 compare then if not similar? Asking as picking up targets at 100nm isn't a problem in Hornet ingame either.

You call this a source? We 100% have the v5 in the DCS Viper.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337985199_On_the_use_of_AESA_Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array_Radar_and_IRST_InfraRed_SearchTrack_System_to_Detect_and_Track_Low_Observable_Threats

 

Well yes cause it is a source, and it's mirrored by most places talking of the V9.

As for your link, keep in mind this is against a 1 sq.m. RCS target, and it ended up at 38 nm here (vs 22-27 nm against a "medium" sized target for the APG-66), which I think is pretty impressive for such a small target. I mean some sources claim a 20-25 sq.m. RCS for the F-15 Eagle. In other words detection range also depends a lot on what it is you're looking for, so people have got to be sure what it is they're actually picking up before they complain about anything overperforming.

interesting, maybe it's experience in one vs. the other. I'm very effective in the Viper. Hornet tends to drop bandits, especially in TWS.

The Viper is buggy regarding selecting TWS targets, it takes some fiddling around to select them properly

Well you're welcome to post it, I can only rely on what I've read.

 

As for the DCS version using the V5, if true then how can it be a Blk.50 anno 2007 ? A 2007 Blk.50 comes with the V9 according to all I've read so far.

 

On another note, how should the APG-73 compare then if not similar? Asking as picking up targets at 100nm isn't a problem in Hornet ingame either.

Bacause Block 40's and 50's still use the v5 to this day? A "Block" with a CCIP config (which isnt't even a US thing by the way but for exports) is just an upgrade and systems spec.

Here's the exact specs for the 68 https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=3802&context=utk_gradthes

Using well known radar equations for detaction range of PD dishes one can fairly accurately estimate the detection ranges of various RCS targets in a non ECM environement.

Bacause Block 40's and 50's still use the v5 to this day? A "Block" with a CCIP config (which isnt't even a US thing by the way but for exports) is just an upgrade and systems spec.

Well I think the appropiate question is weither or not the average USAF Blk.50 F-16C in 2007 flew around with V5 or V9.

Here's the exact specs for the 68 https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=3802&context=utk_gradthes

 

Using well known radar equations for detaction range of PD dishes one can fairly accurately estimate the detection ranges of various RCS targets in a non ECM environement.

I couldn't find any mention of what version of the APG-68 is discussed in the document?

Well I think the appropiate question is weither or not the average USAF Blk.50 F-16C in 2007 flew around with V5 or V9.

Its not even about "average" USAF F-16. ED said we have a V5, and unless theres some reason stopping a V5 from being in a 2007 USAF Blk.50, then I have no reason to say that ED is wrong.

Well you're welcome to post it, I can only rely on what I've read.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4057215&postcount=218

AN/APG-68(V)5 multi-mode radar

[/Quote]

 

 

You've received multiple links, now please just read them.

Looking at images of both the Hornet and the Falcon with their radar dishes on display, they don't look much different in size aside from the obvious shape difference of the APG-68. Just curious on what gives the APG-73 its superior detection range.

The hornet's antenna has 25%-30% larger area.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4057215&postcount=218

 

 

 

 

You've received multiple links, now please just read them.

On the contrary please read my posts. I'm not disputing that the DCS is using the V5.

Some things to consider:

If the APG-68 is capable of detecting a 1 sq.m. target at 38 nm (according to the source linked by airhunter) then:

1) What is the RCS of a typical combat loaded F/A-18C?

With the big pylons, esp. when loaded in SPAMRAAM config, I suspect we're talking quite a big one.

2) What is the RCS of a combat loaded F-16C?

With far more discrete pylons, and probably a smaller RCS than the F/A-18C to begin with, I'd expect it to be noticably smaller than that of the Hornet.

So with this in mind, at what range is it reasonable to expect these two to detect each other? In other words are we really seeing a problem ingame?

I don't presume to know what was specifically ask but I interpreted it in such a way that the question was:

What does the ownship RCS has to do with the ownship radar dish size/power.

It would only make sense if you put viper against hornet and if it's head-on then I guess they would see each other at pretty much the same range.

If that was the question. But my answer is just a guess anyways.

Yep, measuring radar performance is done against targets with identical RCS, otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges. For a given RCS, the Viper should detect the target way after the Hornet, which should detect the target way after the Eagle.

I guess the problem is more general than a viper vs hornet scenario, rather that right now viper and hornet are detecting lets say, a mig29 at almost the same distance, while in reality, the hornet should have higher detection range (given same scenario/aspect) based on antena size and power.

I guess the problem is more general than a viper vs hornet scenario, rather that right now viper and hornet are detecting lets say, a mig29 at almost the same distance, while in reality, the hornet should have higher detection range (given same scenario/aspect) based on antena size and power.

MiG29 the other day I didn't see on the scope until it was at about 30nm (hot) in the F-16.

MiG29 the other day I didn't see on the scope until it was at about 30nm (hot) in the F-16.

Well, not sure what to say, but the "other day" is very random. It could be caused by many things (improper elevation management, beaming...). Test a simple mission with a mig29 head on and I can tell you you will detect it much before 30 nm (I dont know the exact figures though need to test it) 99% of the time which is the point of the discussion, since in both planes there will be certain situations caused by other factors where you dont detect a bandit until its too late.

Wow this thread has taken a turn since I last posted lol. Look I understand most of you want absolute realism, but you need to understand that you will NEVER get that. You can get close, and I again I understand "as close as possible", but at the end of the day, this will never happen. This issue of not being able to even see a target, and almost never being able to use TWS is just not right. We have a radar that scales out to 160 and yet I can't pick up anything inside 40 miles. When I do I can't even use TWS for various reasons. This is not FUN. And not only that, but it forces me to fly other planes when I would rather fly the F-16. That is also not FUN. Realism is fine, but not when it gets in the way of fun, and fun is what games are supposed to be, whether its a simulator or a an FPS. IMHO this needs to be fixed. Charts or no charts and real or not. That's just my opinion.

You wan to talk about realism...the frustration I'm hearing from alot of you is the exact same in the real world Viper community...so shack to ED for that!

Couple things:

TWS..... Not used in the real world. Not to say maybe in DCS it has it's strengths, I'm just saying if you want realism, we don't use it. RWS is bread and butter.

Hornet (legacy) vs Viper radar.... They're about the same.

V5 radar vs V9.... processing power. You'd be surprised what just upgrading the processing units will do even though the bulk of the equipment is the same.

Finally, Hummingbird has been driving the right point all along. Detection range and holding/dropping locks will vary for so many reasons, biggest of which is RCS.

Keep in mind real world, RCS will change as well, it's not a "4"....its sometimes 4, sometimes more (or less). RCS is just a number that can't express every instance or situation an aircraft will present to an enemy radar. All depends on Look angle, Doppler shift, clutter, ect....

Basically the radar can see stuff pretty far away, the only problem is the processor unit(s) needs to sort out the noise from the metal. I'm not sure DCS is modeling the radar to that level of fidelity, but if so, you're going to see weird shit and not get the same results every time. Welcome to the real world because that's the kind of frustration that actually exists. It's overcome with tactics, good radar mech, and solid GCI/Mission planning so we know where to put the radar.

Finally, Hummingbird has been driving the right point all along. Detection range and holding/dropping locks will vary for so many reasons, biggest of which is RCS.

No, he isn't. What he's saying is great and all but not helpful.

Keep in mind real world, RCS will change as well, it's not a "4"....its sometimes 4, sometimes more (or less). RCS is just a number that can't express every instance or situation an aircraft will present to an enemy radar. All depends on Look angle, Doppler shift, clutter, ect....

In DCS it's just a number. It's 'just a 4' when set that way in a file.

I'm not sure DCS is modeling the radar to that level of fidelity,

It's modeling the radar equation which incorporates various sources of noise or representations thereof, in particular the minimum signal detection value (without it, a radar of any power could have infinite detection range) which mostly represents own-noise. Still not a variable number in game.

It's overcome with tactics, good radar mech, and solid GCI/Mission planning so we know where to put the radar.

This part is true, but none of the other stuff you said applies. In DCS you plug the RCS value of the target into the radar equation and that's that. There's no (AFAIK) probability of detection, you're detected or not based on the radar equation.

There's no doppler, there are no pulses, there's no EM simulation. Everything is 'simulated' by proxy - ie. the doppler shift is the calculated closure, not the actual doppler shift, etc.

Data for the radar was presented to ED, they'll do whatever they believe is right with that data now.

The answer is right in front of you in the picture you guys posted.

Notice that its showing the F-16 detection ranges for Low PRF and Medium PRF modes.

These waveforms dont have nearly as much gain as High PRF waveforms(higher duty cycle), as not as many pulses are integrated.

The below image is an Westinghouse advertisement of the improvements in detection range from v1 to v9.

note the new "medium duty transmitter" for the "ERS" mode in the v9.

keeping in mind that "all aspect" implies range gating (ie not traditional HPRF), ERS likely achieved greater detection ranges with the MPRF waveform by increasing the duty cycle.

No, he isn't. What he's saying is great and all but not helpful.

- because you don't agree with it.

Remember all I'm saying is that people need to know what it is they're actually picking up on their radar screen in DCS before making judgement on wether or not the radar is really overperforming or not. That is; is it a [insert airplane name] loaded to the brim with missiles & fuel bags, or is it a virtually clean one? (This is ofccourse assuming loading external stores increases the RCS in DCS, which I honestly don't know if it does)

I said this as it felt like someone was trying to argue that a Hornet would pick up a Viper before the Viper could pick up a Hornet, which I don't really see any evidence to suggest should be the case. Thus if you're campaigning so aggressively for the Vipers radar to be decreased in effectiveness, then why are we not seeing you do the same for the Hornet which radar is even better ingame?

Remember like TheFighterPilot says, the pilots who've flown both usually observe the Viper & Hornet (Legacy ofc) radars perform about the same in actual practice, i.e. the difference in being able to pick up similar targets isn't that big.

(This is ofccourse assuming loading external stores increases the RCS in DCS, which I honestly don't know if it does)

No it doesnt. All planes have a fixed RCS number, regardless of loadout.

Thus if you're campaigning so aggressively for the Vipers radar to be decreased in effectiveness, then why are we not seeing you do the same for the Hornet which radar is even better ingame?

Actually, I did bring this up in the ED discord a while ago, as the Hornet radar is overperforming as well. I simply didnt have much in the way or sources at the time. But youre right, the hornet radar is definitely overperforming, it is beating the RL F-15 radar in detection range. I just really havent focused on the Hornet as I really dont fly it much for A2A.