A plea to the DCS community: (re-)presentation of women in DCS

Hello everyone,

With this thread I'd like to raise a topic that is - in my view - underexposed and in need of discussion and (self-)reflection: the inclusiveness and equality of the female part of the community.

This is a topic that is generally avoided it seems, and if brought up, rediculed or even deleted by moderators.

Woman are indeed a minority in military aviation, virtual or otherwise, but that doesn't mean when someone feels the need to point out a particular situation where our presence is underexposed, it should be branded "off-topic", moved to a distant dark corner of the forum or even deleted altogether because "some do not handle these kinds off (sic) discussions well".

Sadly, a quote from forum user and part of the ED Tester Team, @Weta43, can't be repeated here since the original post has been deleted, but it comes down to this:

"You mean to say all this annoying woman talk should be moved to a different part of the forum in order not to disrupt men having a serious conversation? Seriously?"

This sums it up nicely.

I also recommend this article. While this is not related in any way to DCS in particular, it does point out the underlying issue of how (at least some) men deal with underrepresentation of women in society. Aside from this particular article, there are plenty more of those addressing the same issue.

Back to DCS then. This particular topic seems to have gained wide-ranged support from the community, but when specific points are brought up in existing threads, the responses are less kind.

Ranging from highly immature (this is just one of many examples I have come accross) to simply being tossed aside as "irrelevant" and deleted as "off-topic". Men openly ask "what does gender have to do with DCS", "what does gender have to do with in-flight refuelling" in order to deligitimise questions being raised about under-representation:

- There is no option to have a female voice for basic in-game communications such as asking for ground power, requesting ATC for taxi clearance, ... (as opposed to male English, male Russian and recently even male Chinese/Mandarin);

- There are no female pilot models to use in cockpits;

- There is a lack of female ATC responders when using English as communication language (the Russian ATC does have more women);

- ...

What I am asking for is not by any means "special attention". What I am asking for is not to be tossed aside as irrelevant.

To people starting posts (both regular forum users such as myself, and developers) and youtube-videos, please don't start of exlusively with "Hi gentlemen", "hello gents", or "Welcome to the Hornet, gentlemen". There are alternatives such as "ladies and gents" or simply "Hello people" or "Hey everyone".

This particular post has been made as a reaction to a multi-page discussion that was first moved to the "Chit-chat" subforum (which has the subtext "What relates, but doesn't fit in" - *cough*) and later deleted without a trace (not even marked as "deleted - reason: off-topic"), but is quite overdue regardless as a general subject.

There are multiple women on this forum aside from myself, who don't speak up and stay "in the closet". I wonder why...

The tactics used on this forum are in line with so called "hysteria" in the 18th/19th century, and frankly that should change: the diversity of society is something to be recognised and even cherished: it improves everyone's lives. Ad-hominem attacks don't help anyone, quite the opposite.

I speak up here with the best possible intentions, in order to improve DCS as a product, and society in general. :thumbup:

Thanks for bearing with me. I'd love to hear the (mature) opinion of the rest of the community!

Kind regards,

Raven

Good post Elysian Angel. I think you just have «collided» with the wrong people; I support you and hope ED will listen to your call for change also.

Agreed,

For people to be put into the 'quiet corner' is out of order. Wit regards to "hello Gents" etc, a lot of people it's merely habit and not meant to leave out the women of this community. As time moves on maybe it'll change but I'm sure most mean no disrespect by it.

For sure the attitude needs to change and for mods to delete posts by females etc for the reasons you've stated I ask this to ED: Do you want people on your team who try to brush the women of this community under the carpet?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

+1

Completely agree, Raven! Great post!

I am fully in support of this too. We definitely need to make sure no-one is excluded for any reason, or made to feel belittled.

Let's make DCS World a place where everyone feels at home.

What strikes me is that you're able to genderdize a game that is about machines and physics. Well done!

Some of my favourite gamer friends are women, not in DCS unfortunately but a lot of my Steam friends are female and I tend to keep my language and actions moderated because of this.

Being in my 50's now I have seen a huge change in how women are perceived since the 70's and it is obviously for the better but not all of society has changed with the times and I guess wherever you go you will be met with prejudice from some quarters.

And Raven if you like choppers your always welcome to come along to the 229th :)

I am all in favour of women being acknowledged more. Heck, half of the world's population are female. It always brings a pleasant smile to my face when I see, in real life, a woman piloting a military aircraft. Of course, who hasn't heard of the "Killer Chick"? (Kim Campbell)

You know what? You are right. I'm uninstalling until this game has transsexual pilot model!

What strikes me is that you're able to genderdize a game that is about machines and physics. Well done!

You know what? You are right. I'm uninstalling until this game has transsexual pilot model!

There already is one, but Shhhhh! - she is still pre-op and trying to figure things out, so please keep it between you and me.

Totally in favor of this as well. Being inclusive just means you’re tolerant of a wider audience coming into DCS. By no means should this be a “boys only” club, nor is it a zero-sum game where if you’re inclusive of women, somehow you’re less inclusive of men.

I’d love to hear a mix of male and female ATC voices, as well as having a female voice/character option for those who want it.

- There is no option to have a female voice for basic in-game communications such as asking for ground power, requesting ATC for taxi clearance, ... (as opposed to male English, male Russian and recently even male Chinese/Mandarin);

- There is a lack of female ATC responders when using English as communication language (the Russian ATC does have more women);

- ...

Thats just down to sound files created. As far as I know there is no option to change the players voice. So there is one and only one based on the language the character speaks. The game possibly could support multiple voice types like what it does with the Russian ATC and allied flights. But that'd still need an option to choose a voice.

Just to emphasis the whole sound file aspect, there haven't been any new voices added since the A-10C release. Thats why we have been stuck with the same old callsigns and general comms for everything in the game for so long. Its something thats been in dire need of updating if for anything for the sake of variety. And for ATC the sake of functionality.

i thought political discussion was banned?

obviously not gender politics :)

I'm here for the beautiful aircraft. you can do what you like with the humans. replace them all with my little ponies if you like.

in fact replacing the male gazelle co-pilot with a pony may be an improvement.

he freaking scares me.

Ideally it shouldnt even be an option, except for player model and voice, but all the rest should just be random. That would be a very welcome addition to the game :thumbup:.

he freaking scares me.

Me too! My therapist doesn't mind though: she gets paid...

Ideally it shouldnt even be an option, except for player model and voice, but all the rest should just be random...

I absolutely agree.

I don't know how many changes would be necessary to have a female pilot model, there is a single pilot model per airplane, so maybe adding a second model as an option could be challenging, and we have more important bugs to be fixed first. But I understand the point.

According to ATC, if I remember well russian speaking one IS female, and for russian planes I prefer to keep the native language (with english overlay, of course - I do not speak russian!).

I'm all for more women here and getting involved with the DCS community and everyone showing respect here to all, on one of the most culturally diverse communities forums around.

Try not to take it all to heart what goes on around here Elysian Angel.

"Ranging from highly immature (this is just one of many examples I have come accross) "

That was a little funny... It's just how men sometimes think, mostly think. Boy's will be boy's sometimes.;) So primitive...

Nicely written, like a true biochemist, if I remember correctly.:)

And so they even came here.

Thank god this internet address has the .ru ending, so nobody will take it as seriously as in Western European countries: D

How should I be a white heterosexual male who likes a man's hobby? : /

As my father taught me how to respect women and let them go in front of me, nowadays I have to wonder if being a gentleman will offend some feminist.

Suspend work on Hornet and Hormuz. Make a pair of women's models and record their voices * so that the topless activist does not show up at the front of your office ... ohh... ;)

*- that's kind of work can be fun too :P

What strikes me is that you're able to genderdize a game that is about machines and physics. Well done!

What strikes me is that you find fault in someone asking to be given due consideration - well done for immediately singling out this post for criticism!

I see nothing wrong with there being more options, female pilot models aren't going to turn all your planes pink.

I wonder if the voices will get an overhaul when we get the new ATC system, you'd think they would HAVE to record a bunch more. That may be a good opportunity for ED to add female voices.

The carrier ATC or any ATC would be cool with a women's voice.

Might order these for the misses, she's not that interested in the hornet. Why are you so excited over a virtual aircraft? she will never understand.:music_whistling:

Being inclusive is of benefit to everyone. We are all enriched by the presence of people of every possible grouping and just because you are a member of an "in" group today doesn't mean you always will be in every perceivable situation. This is a simulation of real life military aviation, female military pilots and ATC exist in real life, ergo they should be in the game.

As we all know DCS started way back with the flanker back in 95/96 since then it evolved to dcs world like it is right now. Back in those days there were even less females interested in computer games and i think that's a big part why some of your "options" are not there today. It's the same for racing sims there are also no female driver models and still a lot of females are racing in those games.

But DCS is a mod friendly platform you could also do something in that regard and bring up a female pilot model or get some friends and other female pilots together to record new voice overs for everything. As long as most of us live in a democracy it won't work that the 20% decide what happens with the 80% and that is a sadly fact. https://venturebeat.com/2013/09/19/gender-inequality/

Don't get me wrong i would also love more female voices through the radio communication but i also think that ED should fix a lot of other bugs which are more important to the whole community than new voice overs.

[url=https://venturebeat.com/2013/09/19/gender-inequality/][/url]

And so they even came here.

 

Thank god this internet address has the .ru ending, so nobody will take it as seriously as in Western European countries: D

 

How should I be a white heterosexual male who likes a man's hobby? : /

As my father taught me how to respect women and let them go in front of me, nowadays I have to wonder if being a gentleman will offend some feminist.

 

Suspend work on Hornet and Hormuz. Make a pair of women's models and record their voices * so that the topless activist does not show up at the front of your office ... ohh... ;)

 

*- that's kind of work can be fun too :P

That thread got you all worked up didn't it?

There's so much wrong with your post, from assumptions to logical falacies, that I hardly know where to begin and as such don't think I will engage with them. I think it's necessary to respond quickly though as the white knights abound.

If you want to petition ED for female voices, models, etc. I'll back you up all the way. Nobody is trying to oppress you here and it would be great to have the variety. You do realize though that the female contingent of online flight simulation is incredibly small in comparison to the men don't you? And you understand that would inevitably lead to certain design choices as there's limited time and resources to create everything in a simulation that's 18+ years old now?

To my knowledge nobody is trying to oppress or exclude you.

If you want to fly with me as my wing or my lead I'd love it ( assuming we'd get along ). In pretty much every campaign that's been or being developed there are female parts, from ATC to pilots. I think your premise that you're being excluded is just wrong.

If you choose to continue to have problems with the community at large, you could always start an all female squadron, or develop all female acted missions/campaigns, or do some other clever thing that I can't think of.

If you want me to change my language so your feelings don't get hurt...no. You don't get to dictate my language (something that has been a prelude to every social engineering atrocity in human history) and if you're really that upset about a completely innocuous colloquialism like gentlemen, I'd recommend toughening up a bit because it would serve you well in the world.

I hope you understand that nothing I've said here is said with malice. These are simply my thoughts and you can take from them what you will ~