Getting on AoA

Once on down wind leg, at what speed are you looking for to start adding trim too best catch the

E bracket and be on AoA by the time you are abeam. I am two having a time with trying to find the sweet spot with this. I am basing this on being near and under max trap weight and clean, during a case I approach.

Thanks for your input

Once on down wind leg, at what speed are you looking for to start adding trim too best catch the

E bracket and be on AoA by the time you are abeam. I am two having a time with trying to find the sweet spot with this. I am basing this on being near and under max trap weight and clean, during a case I approach.

 

Thanks for your input

I usually just line up first with the gear and flaps down, play with the throttle to get the speed I want (roughly 130 knots), and finally, mess with the pitch trim until I hold a roughly constant pitch. Then mess with the throttle to keep the right speed.

Then land that puppy.

That's all there is to it :)

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You can use ATC too. It will keep you at the right speed for the bracket.

130knt - 140knts works for me.

Weight of the aircraft is also factored would come to play but most time between 130knts and 140knts

You can use ATC too. It will keep you at the right speed for the bracket.

Don't do that as the bracket speed will vary with your bank angle, just trim it on AoA manage your descent rate with power, thats all there is to it

Don't do that as the bracket speed will vary with your bank angle, just trim it on AoA manage your descent rate with power, thats all there is to it

Didn't say it was a good idea :lol:

I tend to need about 11 degrees trim, so as soon as I roll out of the break turn (wheels and flaps already down) I start adding trim to about 11, then adjust from there.

Do you guys just fight the plane's desire to pitch way up after trimming? I find myself pushing the stick heavily forward to keep myself from ballooning

Do you guys just fight the plane's desire to pitch way up after trimming? I find myself pushing the stick heavily forward to keep myself from ballooning

I've been practicing this with the new FM and I try and match the trim and throttle when leveling out from the break. As your speed is approaching 130 to 140kts, start adding power to catch it and at the same time start adding a little trim while balancing the (power movement) to hold a level flight path marker 800 feet. While still adding more trim until you are on speed AOA and level all at the same time.(To easy):) Then drop down to 600, If that makes senses. The whole thing is more of a dance and the whole pattern is trying to do the waltz and hopefully you don't have two left feet.:D

Edit: The trick here is adding the correct amount of throttle as you come out level because the wings + flaps will gain more lift when in level flight, so go easy on the throttle while adding more trim and leveling out on the downwind. This takes some practice.

Hmm, so coming out if the break I'm at 250 knots so I drop gear and go full flaps, that's when the balloon happens. Are you cutting throttle further and then lowering gear and flaps, then trimming?

What I do is set my speed so that the AoA is correct and then trim to set the Velocity Vector indicator out in front of me on the ocean where the carrier would be at final approach from 600ft. Then i would make my turn and fly level using throttle for pitch until I am ready to make the final. Then I set he VV on the carrier and i am usually perfect on AoA but if not I adjust the trim slightly so the VV is on the carrier and the AoA is correct. This method works regardless of the aircraft weight.

slyfly

Do you guys just fight the plane's desire to pitch way up after trimming? I find myself pushing the stick heavily forward to keep myself from ballooning

I recall Lex mentioning something about the real Hornet needing a lot of forward stick after deploying gear and flaps, so I think that's accurate. I have to do that on downwind as well.

Don't do that as the bracket speed will vary with your bank angle, just trim it on AoA manage your descent rate with power, thats all there is to it

You can do it if you fly a good profile. But even the NATOPS manual warns against any sudden changes in pitch.

I've been practicing this with the new FM and I try and match the trim and throttle when leveling out from the break. As your speed is approaching 130 to 140kts, start adding power to catch it and at the same time start adding a little trim while balancing the (power movement) to hold a level flight path marker 800 feet. While still adding more trim until you are on speed AOA and level all at the same time.(To easy):) Then drop down to 600, If that makes senses. The whole thing is more of a dance and the whole pattern is trying to do the waltz and hopefully you don't have two left feet.:D

 

Edit: The trick here is adding the correct amount of throttle as you come out level because the wings + flaps will gain more lift when in level flight, so go easy on the throttle while adding more trim and leveling out on the downwind. This takes some practice.

Hmm, so coming out if the break I'm at 250 knots so I drop gear and go full flaps, that's when the balloon happens. Are you cutting throttle further and then lowering gear and flaps, then trimming?

I'm at 250kts normally just past the 90 mark off the break, many here don't pull enough G's I think for the break, from many of the post I have seen.

You hold 1% of the speed as you break.

350kts 3.5G's - 300kts 3G's - 275kts 2.7G's (Watch the speed and G in the HUD, it does't need to be perfectly matched, just get it close)

Also make sure to (hold) and extend the speed brake all the way out just before entering the break etc.

This will set you up for gear and flaps down at or just past the 90 degree (See Pic below at gear down) and you will be holding a 30 degree bank and zero throttle still. As the speed comes down I add a little up trim as I start to roll level my speed is around 140 and I start bringing the throttle back on, now I'm only trying to use enough throttle to keep the flight path marker level, at the same time trimming up or bring the E bracket down to the level flight path marker and on speed.

As I come wings level I'm on speed AOA and still at 800 feet, then descend to 600feet on the downwind.

The way to check if you are pulling enough G's in the break is to check the abeam distance with TACAN. It should be close to 1.2 miles, when level straight across from the carrier on the downwind.

youre thinking wrong. its a practice thing. On speed AoA at the middle tick is variable and depends on your configuration and weight. If you want however to nail the middle of the E, you trim for the E first then cut power and continue trimming. At least that is how I understand it.

since forward stick is needed anyways upon dirtying up, imho you can start trimming for AoA right away.. just needs to push stick forward even more for the time it takes to transition into AoA speed..

As others shoot for 11, personally i usually shoot for 8 units STABS UP and go from there..

I'd simply say, if not comfortable with, just start practicing it, fly straight at a speed with gears, flaps up, loose speed, let the nose drop a little, then manage your throttle to avoid to sink to fast as you start trimming, so your flight path marker intercept the E bracket until you get an orange donut on your AoA indexer at a more or less 2.5/3 degrees pitch down so basicly visualy intercept your E bracket and FPM in sorta the middle of your artificial horizon on your HUD and the -5 degree pitch ladder, then once both are together, adjust rate of descent to get to 0 or simply fly lever as you just add power throttle for a level flight.

Then speed up, gears, flaps up, and repeat. Once comfortable then go ahead and try at the break.

No magic recipe, practice will be the recipe, the more you do it the easiest it'll get. Manage it then after think about the numbers.

If you practice what i said, you'll be able to manage a gradual trimming, control of your rate of descent, and managing your rate of descent on speed with the proper AoA. After that it'll be easier to anticipate how to do it as you roll out your 180 and get in downwind.

Or better yet, practice how Lex made it quite simple in his video.

David C, that explanation was very helpful, thanks

Can't recommend Lex's video on it enough. When I do a few circuits of his AoA practice with a 1,000 foot hard-deck before trapping on the carrier, I'll snag the 3 wire most of the time.

since forward stick is needed anyways upon dirtying up...

If you're applying forward stick when dirtying up, then your timing is off. You should be below 250kts half way through the break as David OC says; at this point drop gear and flaps. Because you're already pulling back while still in the turn, all you need to do is modulate back pressure rather than push the stick forward.

Give it a go :thumbup:

Can't recommend Lex's video on it enough. When I do a few circuits of his AoA practice with a 1,000 foot hard-deck before trapping on the carrier, I'll snag the 3 wire most of the time.

The main goal was to get the hang of getting into landing config, properly trim with controled AoA and get the hang form going fast, to landing, expecting how the aircraft will behave with gears and flaps going down etc. Forget the numbers as what OP wants is the getting on AoA. That'S why i showed that movie.

The main goal was to get the hang of getting into landing config, properly trim with controled AoA and get the hang form going fast, to landing, expecting how the aircraft will behave with gears and flaps going down etc. Forget the numbers as what OP wants is the getting on AoA. That'S why i showed that movie.

You can't get the numbers unless you get the AoA.

Once on down wind leg, at what speed are you looking for to start adding trim too best catch the

E bracket and be on AoA by the time you are abeam. I am two having a time with trying to find the sweet spot with this. I am basing this on being near and under max trap weight and clean, during a case I approach.

 

Thanks for your input

My main goal here was to be on AoA abeam based on vfa 113's miz to avoid being too long in the grove and having that airbus cut me off. :lol: So how far pass the ship can I go before making turn to help bleed off speed, brake out, gear down, flap full. Currently I am counting ten seconds. Should I give myself more time?

Thanks

My main goal here was to be on AoA abeam based on vfa 113's miz to avoid being too long in the grove and having that airbus cut me off. :lol: So how far pass the ship can I go before making turn to help bleed off speed, brake out, gear down, flap full. Currently I am counting ten seconds. Should I give myself more time?

 

Thanks

4 miles in front of the ship is the latest you can make your break.

My main goal here was to be on AoA abeam based on vfa 113's miz to avoid being too long in the grove and having that airbus cut me off. :lol: So how far pass the ship can I go before making turn to help bleed off speed, brake out, gear down, flap full. Currently I am counting ten seconds. Should I give myself more time?

 

Thanks

When learning the break go pass the carrier 1 to 1.5 miles. You should have the TACAN set, carrier course line set and have the HSI scale set to 10. Have TACAN selected so you can see the ship distance in the HUD.

The HSI can also help you to see if you are roughly the right distance on the downwind, as the little plane icon wings should be just touching the carriers course line (HSI 10 scale)

My main goal here was to be on AoA abeam based on vfa 113's miz to avoid being too long in the grove and having that airbus cut me off. :lol:

If the carrier and wind speeds are correct (They need to be) 25 to 30kts combined. Then you turn in when abeam (Straight across) the rear of the carrier at 1.2 miles accross (Check TACAN here) as this 1.2 miles and (when you turn in) will allow you to learn what you need to do to hit the next 90 degrees point and adjust. Say you are 1.4 miles, you will need to ease up on the 30 degree bank (softer arc) or widen the distance around to the groove entrance.

The problem here when you need to do that too much, it's going to lengthen the groove length also. You then to deep in the groove (airbus cut me off)

Same with late turn in from the abeam and way past the rear of the carrier, you will need more bank to start heading towards the carrier quicker because she is driving away from you and lengthening the groove more.

Also remember that when you turn in at the abeam, it looks like your turning to soon when it's not and takes getting used to. The wind (if set) is pushing you downwind away from the carrier + the carrier is driving away form you until the 90 degree point in space. That's the point you need to learn to see this picture, this is the only time you glance over at the carrier in this turn (To see how it looks) Does it look long? (Tighten turn?) Short? easy up on the bank, 25 degrees lengthen groove. The pattern is dynamic and flowing. Even more so IRL with very unpredictable weather, wind shear etc.

It just all comes back to hitting EACH of the numbers the best you can in this pattern and adjusting as needed at each of the check points for the next. there is no perfect 100% pattern.

If you are long than watch this one of Lex's videos a few times.

Starts at the 2:00 mark