Trim changing for non-FFB joystics

Wow, I wonder if their patents cover ribbed condoms too

Would be nice to have this as an option or (incase an options setting is not feasible with the DCS engine) for a test. Presonally I like the ingame-stick-moves under perssure changes approach over the stick position ingame == physical possition due to the additional feedback we would get (usually I don't care much for the position of my stick but the force I feel from the spring. If deploying the flaps ingame would require to pull the physical stick slightly spring force would be greater -> better feeling for the aircraft).

We don't know how much this would be effecting controlls though so I agree a test would better before making the ultimate decision.

I always felt that the need to apply forward stick pressure when the flaps are engaged seemed wrong.IMO a nose heavy plane when flaps applied makes more sense.

My 2 Cents worth ... a Non FFB user. Seeing the pitch trim change with flap and gear is the important thing. If the trim change is there you will still react "naturally" by doing what you need to do with the Stick first to hold the desired nose position. So for a FFB user he applies a force for the non FFB user he moves the stick..... then both trim. Reaction to Flap and gear is going to very from type to type. To me the important thing is the trim change is present. IRL the pilot just does what is needed to counter the trim change ... there is no perceived I need to hold force or move the stick you just do what needs to be done.

Highly improbable that some joystick brand will venture in Force Feedback joystick for flight games after Logitech failure/debacle, due licenses involved:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_v._Sony

 

~

Cheers... now it all makes sense as to why MS stopped production of their FFB2 joystick >that< company, strikes again

My 2 Cents worth ... a Non FFB user. Seeing the pitch trim change with flap and gear is the important thing. If the trim change is there you will still react "naturally" by doing what you need to do with the Stick first to hold the desired nose position. So for a FFB user he applies a force for the non FFB user he moves the stick..... then both trim. Reaction to Flap and gear is going to very from type to type. To me the important thing is the trim change is present. IRL the pilot just does what is needed to counter the trim change ... there is know perceived I need to hold force or move the stick you just do what needs to be done.

Totally agree mate... learn how to fly the bugga and ya learn what to expect - trim is an after action (unless you're coming in for a trap on a carrier, in which case you're pre - trimmed for power on and go around if ya miss ;) )

Is that why no one makes FFB sticks any more!? Urgh patents! Personally I love my MS FFB2, for me it makes a huge difference to the sense that I'm flying a real plane. Wish there were more FFB sticks available.

As a FFB user I obviously don't mind as long as the FFB implementation stays as it should :-) However my 2 cents for non FFB use is that I agree with IvanK, the important thing is that you have to react to the pitch trim change ... the fact that you manually will have to make the stick move when in reality it would move itself is not a big problem IMHO.

If I interpret what Yo-Yo is saying correctly in post #1, then a nice aspect of introducing this feature will be that when you lower or raise the flaps in the DCS Me-109K4, you will then have to turn both wheels (flap and trim) in the same direction to maintain trim just as it was IRL! :thumbup:

My 2 Cents worth ... a Non FFB user. Seeing the pitch trim change with flap and gear is the important thing. If the trim change is there you will still react "naturally" by doing what you need to do with the Stick first to hold the desired nose position. IRL the pilot just does what is needed to counter the trim change ... there is no perceived I need to hold force or move the stick you just do what needs to be done.

+1

This sums it up perfectly.

Probably, the ideal solution would be for a flight simulator to dynamically create stick curves. On such a situation, for a non FF stick, the stick would of course stay put at it's neutral ( central ) detent, the aircraft would pitch down, but dynamically the pitch curve would be adapted ( truncated at the full forward end ) to account for the reduced travel then allowed, because even if the joystick is deflected fully forward, the actual travel would then be shorter IRL...

A permanent adaptation of the pitch curves / limits computed on-the-fly to take into account stick-free changes in pitch and roll, would be required, and I believe would allow for a much more realistic fine tuning of the "feel of control" in a PC-based flightsim, even when a non FF joystick is used.

Now, I wonder if those of you with FF sticks do notice the stick moving fwd when you deploy the flaps ?

Gentlemen, I'd like to gather your opinions .. :)

Market your own force-feedback joystick. Explain to the punters that they won't experience the full realism of DCS without one.

Make more money.

@Yo-Yo I used both FFB and non-FFB sticks and I easily came to the conclusion that I would never go back to a non-FFB joystick. No matter how you implement the trim/flaps forces, the non-FFB joystick will lose the feeling that a FFB stick brings, though it's not perfect.. yet. But, I'd personally let the pilot to drive the crate..

What I would really like to see is a more 'refined' implementation of the ffb and/or stick forces, for example, on the 109 the stick 'hardens' @ very slow speeds.. even when taxiing @ 10kph.

If we can adjust the ffb curve, somehow, it would be just perfect and would add even more to the 'feeling' the virtual pilot is getting via ffb.

Now, I wonder if those of you with FF sticks do notice the stick moving fwd when you deploy the flaps ?

Yes

Market your own force-feedback joystick. Explain to the punters that they won't experience the full realism of DCS without one.

 

 

Make more money.

Guess that wasn't such a popular idea.

Yes

Well, and since I o not own an FFB joystick, and I really regret it :-/, all I can say is that DCS's approach ( Yo-Yo's implementation of this feature ) is indeed the one that feels better / more realistic to me.