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Problem with the R-3R missiles again


edineygomes

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I set up a test mission with an F-5 in front of me flying in the same direction. When I fire the missile at a distance of 3 kilometers, 1G maximum, it goes straight and does not follow the target. The second missile usually follows the target when it is maneuvering. If I launch the missile from a distance of more than 3 kilometers, say 4 kilometers, it also does not work. My aircraft is averaging 700 kilometers per hour when I fire the missile. Is that a bug or is the missile so bad against targets going in the same direction as you? I remember well at the beginning when the module was released that was very good this missile, now it is not worth using it anymore.

 

The F-5 is at a slower speed than the mig-21.

 

Thanks

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I suspected the fact that 3+ ways switches are better to be manipulated sequentially because of the way they are coded.

I noticed that the radio channels via scripts, must be incremented to reach the desired one, otherwise it is broken and requires to go back to channel 0 for re-initialization. Same for the radar power switch. Go directly to operate position via button shortcut without using the stand-by position and the radar is dead for the rest of the mission.

 

I mapped the IR/Radar seeker selection switch on my HOTAS. The cockpit switch has a neutral position that I never use. One time I couldn't just fire the desired missile type, thought that I made a mistake, flipped the switch over and fired the missile. But the seeker was actually of the wrong type and the missile was wasted (and I died from the counter-attack :doh:)

 

The last hypotheses I can make is that some critical variable is not correctly initialized from the mission start, and gets OK once the first missile is fired.

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I suspected the fact that 3+ ways switches are better to be manipulated sequentially because of the way they are coded.

I noticed that the radio channels via scripts, must be incremented to reach the desired one, otherwise it is broken and requires to go back to channel 0 for re-initialization. Same for the radar power switch. Go directly to operate position via button shortcut without using the stand-by position and the radar is dead for the rest of the mission.

 

I mapped the IR/Radar seeker selection switch on my HOTAS. The cockpit switch has a neutral position that I never use. One time I couldn't just fire the desired missile type, thought that I made a mistake, flipped the switch over and fired the missile. But the seeker was actually of the wrong type and the missile was wasted (and I died from the counter-attack :doh:)

 

The last hypotheses I can make is that some critical variable is not correctly initialized from the mission start, and gets OK once the first missile is fired.

 

I also set the keys on my hotas and the problem is the same. No Dev to clarify what it could be?

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I set up a test mission with an F-5 in front of me flying in the same direction. When I fire the missile at a distance of 3 kilometers, 1G maximum, it goes straight and does not follow the target.

 

that a bug or is the missile so bad against targets going in the same direction as you?

The F-5 is at a slower speed than the mig-21.

 

 

3-4km distance is quit a reach I think for a R-3R missile, as it has lot to fly in that range.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2304485&postcount=2

 

Based to that above information, R-3R the 3-4km distance gets quickly to those limits.

 

And then comes the question that how much slower F-5 is to your 700km/h?

And then again does the AI use chaff? As that is already enough to just render most SARH missiles useless in DCS because it is wrongly modeled.

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3-4km distance is quit a reach I think for a R-3R missile, as it has lot to fly in that range.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2304485&postcount=2

 

Based to that above information, R-3R the 3-4km distance gets quickly to those limits.

 

And then comes the question that how much slower F-5 is to your 700km/h?

And then again does the AI use chaff? As that is already enough to just render most SARH missiles useless in DCS because it is wrongly modeled.

 

 

The f-5 is at a speed between 300 - 350km / h and is not launching countermeasures

 

 

If he used countermeasures, would the radar not have to lose the lock?


Edited by edineygomes
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If flying directly at rear and target drops chaff, every radar out there will drop the lock as there is no way that radars see through thr chaff cloud that blocks/reflects the radar signal back to radar and even more stronger manner closer radar comes to it.

 

So missile flying toward the chaff has a own challenge to spot where and aims to center of the strongest signal. Now if missile flies through the chaff, it should be able see the target again, but how missile is programmed to operate after it has passed the strongest signal?

 

And when chaff already cuts the lock, missile doesn't have a guidance if not possible to re-acquire it (question of missile guidance etc etc).

 

But as the F-5 didn't release chaff, the radar stayed locked, the missile should track the target well if correctly launched (IIRC R-3R can't be launched without a lock before launch).

 

700kmh - 300-350kmh is still a 350-400km/h difference for radar so even that shouldn't be a cause.

 

And flying almost 2x slower rules out the notching, unless the speed difference is below the filtered speed.

 

Like have you tried a slow moving target filter?

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

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It shouldn't matter. The tone heard in the pilot's helmet before launching is from the R-3R seeker. If the tone can be heard before launch then it is sufficient to guide and will only grow stronger as the missile approaches.

 

 

But this is not modeled in DCS World, is it?

 

 

If flying directly at rear and target drops chaff, every radar out there will drop the lock as there is no way that radars see through thr chaff cloud that blocks/reflects the radar signal back to radar and even more stronger manner closer radar comes to it.

 

So missile flying toward the chaff has a own challenge to spot where and aims to center of the strongest signal. Now if missile flies through the chaff, it should be able see the target again, but how missile is programmed to operate after it has passed the strongest signal?

 

And when chaff already cuts the lock, missile doesn't have a guidance if not possible to re-acquire it (question of missile guidance etc etc).

 

But as the F-5 didn't release chaff, the radar stayed locked, the missile should track the target well if correctly launched (IIRC R-3R can't be launched without a lock before launch).

 

700kmh - 300-350kmh is still a 350-400km/h difference for radar so even that shouldn't be a cause.

 

And flying almost 2x slower rules out the notching, unless the speed difference is below the filtered speed.

 

Like have you tried a slow moving target filter?

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

 

Does it even influence the contact that appears normally on the radar, without the filter activated?

 

The strange thing is that the second missile works 100%

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If flying directly at rear and target drops chaff, every radar out there will drop the lock as there is no way that radars see through thr chaff cloud that blocks/reflects the radar signal back to radar and even more stronger manner closer radar comes to it.

 

So missile flying toward the chaff has a own challenge to spot where and aims to center of the strongest signal. Now if missile flies through the chaff, it should be able see the target again, but how missile is programmed to operate after it has passed the strongest signal?

 

And when chaff already cuts the lock, missile doesn't have a guidance if not possible to re-acquire it (question of missile guidance etc etc).

 

But as the F-5 didn't release chaff, the radar stayed locked, the missile should track the target well if correctly launched (IIRC R-3R can't be launched without a lock before launch).

 

700kmh - 300-350kmh is still a 350-400km/h difference for radar so even that shouldn't be a cause.

 

And flying almost 2x slower rules out the notching, unless the speed difference is below the filtered speed.

 

Like have you tried a slow moving target filter?

 

The MiG-21 radar can continue to track a target dispensing some amount of chaff. The track gates the range and only allows certain alterations of that gate, rejecting a contact which doesn't move fast enough. Gradual changes in gate motion are acceptable but abrupt halts like chaff does is rejected.

 

The LST radar button disabled slow target rejection circuit which would normally be rejected as chaff. There is also a passive ECM button which is designed to deal with chaff conditions (presumably removing or extending the near range track gate half). The passive ECM light should light (and turn on) automatically as chaff condition is detected to exist in tracking mode. Attempting to track a slow target would trigger this auto activation of passive ECM and the track would be aborted. Retrying again with LST engaged should be successful but passive ECM function is disabled. Oddly radar+gyro option disables the chaff projection circuit as well.

 

What happens when a radar missile is fired against a chaff-dispensing target is a good question. The chaff cloud is almost surely not opaque and the target is also illuminated through the chaff. The chaff usually represents stronger return than the target and may be guided to by the missile provided the chaff remains illuminated by the radar (chaff is in the ~4° beam cone between MiG and tracked target).

 

Upon arrival at the illuminated chaff by the missile, it probably does one of three things:

1. Detonates by radio proximity warhead sensor

2. Continues not acquiring the real target

3. Continues acquiring the real target

 

R-3R seeker is probably PN steered dish type either with or without conical scan pattern. It may continue to desired target reflection provided it lay within the look direction of the dish. So the axis would be of the steerable assembly and not the missile itself which probably reduces the likeliness of the real target happening to lay in the direction the dish is looking as it passes the chaff. What is perhaps likely is that the dish direction steering is practically randomized as the chaff cloud is reached making acquisition on the far side unpredictable. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Missile_R_3R_A391.jpg also AIM-9C which is a contemporary design https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6048/6280826915_80d6bf3eaf_b.jpg

 

Velocity must be assumed by changes in range over time. The 300 km/h screenout is based relative to MiG TAS data. So if MiG @ 800 km/h TAS chases target then it screens out target closing speed values ranging from 501 km/h (going away 299 km/h TAS) to 1199 km/h (closing 299 km/h TAS). A 1000 km/h target chased by a 1000 km/h MiG is not screened out as being less than 300 km/h speed relative. It does raise the question of how does radar calculate tangential motion component to avoid screening out a beaming target. It should multiply angular rate times range and then vector add this to radial distance change and use this to see if it has moved the proper distance in any direction in the given time. (And it's a bit more complex for tangential to account for ownship motion).

 

Chaff will look like a bright patch on scanning mode of radar like a cloud of metal. Because of multipath through foil cloud the range can be beyond it's position and bright so it may cover the target entirely in range. Manual says that if chaff is intermittent the target will be seen emerging from the tip of the cloud (perhaps like star on top of Christmas tree).

 

The F-5 has been problematic for the MiG in the past, sometimes not showing up on the radar at all in situations where other airplanes are.

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Need to remember that chaff works for both ways.

 

Radar <-> Chaff <-> Target

 

The chaff of course ain't perfect opaque, but it is far stronger and larger echo to both sides than anything coming back from either side.

 

In time that cloud crows and moves making it just worse and will block the radars capabilities to see through it well, until it is distributed large enough that it doesn't anymore affect than a weaker background noise and it can take hours.

 

Thre christmas tree analogy is good, works that way from side point of view when tracking a continually dispensing aircraft that literally is like a Korean/Vietnam war era bombers spreading chaff in a line and hiding rest of the fleet flying behind the chaff sky.

 

So it is possible to guide something at the tip of the aircraft releasing chaff, but it requires that missile as well radar are designed to do exactly that and has larger warhead to destroy target at further distance.

 

But in this case the radar would be behind the chaff cloud, blocking everything to both sides, causing lots of random speeds and directions and clutter to see anything past it. The echoes that would come as well back from target gets reflected and distorted so target is masked even better.

 

So for radar it is like a opaque cloth would be drawn front of part of the sky. Or more like a cloud for a naked eye, you see it, you can see partially in it but at some distance target just gets hided and radar can't just see through it.

 

Filters are meant to help for common problems as you as well say, like the speed variation of distance or direction, why chaff is such that you fly so the chaff comes between you and radar or even a behind you so you appear center of it.

 

And of course nearby chaff release causes as well for missile point of view when it flys from a side, a faster new direction target.

 

Even in close range with guns, chaff release causes f-18 radar tracking to go crazy regardless of filtering and small chaff clouds. And considering that missiles has smaller and simpler radars and we talk about generationor two older like Mig-21Bis and its missiles, it just shouldn't be able sre anything through the chaff if not from side or other direction where chaff aint nearby the target.

 

There is a reason why chaff release ain't allowed without good reasons as it is disturbing so many other radars and causing problems in next few hours if not even days depending how chaff flies.

 

But as in the topic the F-5 is disallowed to use CM then it is about release itself of missile.

 

And likely something to do with a last change how missile selector and pylon selector being just a overriders for otherway automatic missile and pylon selection by computer, there can be a bug it will just launch a missile without really locking the first one.

 

It would be strange if no one else suffer from this bug. Need to go testing.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.

i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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