TWS AMRAAMS go for incoming Missiles - Page 3 - ED Forums
 


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Old 12-04-2019, 09:32 PM   #21
GGTharos
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Originally Posted by Harker View Post
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The AMRAAM's own radar activates off the rail (missile goes pitbull), if the shot is taken in 8-10 NM range.

IRL, an AMRAAM that is supported will still receive targeting information from the launching platform that will help it go after the correct target, even after going pitbull.

If I'm not mistaken, in DCS, once the AMRAAM goes pitbull, it only uses its own radar after this point. (thus the importance of not firing FOX-3 missiles towards a furball)

What must've happened in your case is that the missile did get targeting info from the FCR, but at launch, it immediately went pitbull, targeting the first thing its radar saw. Some of your AMRAAMs chose to go after the incoming missile, since it was between them and the target aircraft and it got probably got picked up first by their onboard radar. That should also be possible IRL, but probably with a Maddog or Cheapshot shot (shooting without supporting the missile at all/until pitbull, respectively).
What is 'DCS Ground Crew'?

In any case, there are a lot of things missing from DCS' missile simulation, which is why this is happening. Here's the deal, and you'll recognize what DCS doesn't do:

1) When you pull that trigger, target information is sent to the missile on the rail. This includes the doppler gate setting. Note, this is important! It means we will be SEARCHING for a target with specific closure.

2) We skip battery, rocket activation etc. Missile is launched with knowing range, possibly vector, and doppler gate. It's now in the air .

3) The missile uses the downloaded information to make an initial turn and point the seeker at the target. Onboard seeker is activated and commences search .. Note that the ONLY thing that matters here is that we have sent the missile information at launch, we'll ignore data-links etc.

4) The search finds multiple targets, including what we had targeted. The doppler gate automatically filters out the missiles as their closure is nothing like the target's, and the range gate likewise filters them out because they're a lot closer than that target.

5) Missile locks on the correct target in our scenario.


So, there's lot of work to do for representing what a missile does correctly. EW, including counter-measures depends on this entire process in order to work correctly.

EW might deny initial launch data or provide bad data. CMs may look like your target during the missile's search phase under the correct circumstances.


What if the missile doesn't find the expected target? Then it'll open up its search gates until it finds something else, if something else is to be found.

This process is the same for SARH.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nthere View Post
and tws exist bug,some time will display wrong position on HUD,and seem like not coherent,it often miss target compare with 15c's tws,and 16c's stt not acuracy as 18,it is weird
TWS SHOULD be inaccurate. It's the F-15C that is incorrect here.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
What is 'DCS Ground Crew'?



In any case, there are a lot of things missing from DCS' missile simulation, which is why this is happening. Here's the deal, and you'll recognize what DCS doesn't do:



1) When you pull that trigger, target information is sent to the missile on the rail. This includes the doppler gate setting. Note, this is important! It means we will be SEARCHING for a target with specific closure.



2) We skip battery, rocket activation etc. Missile is launched with knowing range, possibly vector, and doppler gate. It's now in the air .



3) The missile uses the downloaded information to make an initial turn and point the seeker at the target. Onboard seeker is activated and commences search .. Note that the ONLY thing that matters here is that we have sent the missile information at launch, we'll ignore data-links etc.



4) The search finds multiple targets, including what we had targeted. The doppler gate automatically filters out the missiles as their closure is nothing like the target's, and the range gate likewise filters them out because they're a lot closer than that target.



5) Missile locks on the correct target in our scenario.





So, there's lot of work to do for representing what a missile does correctly. EW, including counter-measures depends on this entire process in order to work correctly.



EW might deny initial launch data or provide bad data. CMs may look like your target during the missile's search phase under the correct circumstances.





What if the missile doesn't find the expected target? Then it'll open up its search gates until it finds something else, if something else is to be found.



This process is the same for SARH.
I agree with you, but I was just describing what happens in DCS, at least to my understanding. In my and others' experience, FOX-3 AAMs disregard any datalink targeting data once they go pitbull, which I don't think happens in reality. The missile in DCS uses the target's last position and velocity in order to determine the desired target once it goes pitbull, but ultimately, the missile attacks wherever it locks with its seeker first. That's why everyone carries at least a couple of SAHR AAMs in MP, they don't run the risk of randomly going after a friendly.
The Doppler and range gate logic should resolve the issue of missiles going after missiles, but although some form of Doppler logic exists in DCS for radars, it doesn't seem to apply here. I don't know if it is because this doesn't exist for missiles in DCS or if it's a result of the severed datalink once the missile goes pitbull.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:01 AM   #24
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You are correct.


What's missing in DCS is initial target data and the search/lock system for the missile's radar.


So yes, the missile will go active the lock-on to anything. The only doppler gate is the notch gate.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:13 AM   #25
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I see we have quite some guys here who know their stuff concerning missiles.
I have a question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYUUC6gm5M

Can someone explain me why the Notch did not work in this TacView Debrief?
I don't understand how the Phoenix was able to maintain lock?


I entered the Notch when the Missile was 7 nm out.
At 3 nm I also started pumping chaff. 10 bundles in total.

The only explanation I have is that I was too thrifty dispensing chaff.
And that in the missiles endgame (the last 5nm) I was not precise enough correcting the notch. I let it slip from a 90 aspect to an 85 aspect.

But nevertheless shouldn't the Phoenix or the Tomcat lose lock as soon as I entered the Notch and had the 90 aspect established?

Does someone have an explanation?
I know the Tomcat has Monopulse angle tracking but I'm not a Tomcat guy.

This happens quite often to me.I think I'm on the perfect Notch litereally 5 feet above the trees but the Phoenixs' keep hitting me. I'm having quite a hard time defending Tomcats.


Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

Last edited by DANIELs; 12-07-2019 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 12-07-2019, 03:58 AM   #26
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1) Desync means you don't know where the missile is actually, and 54s desync (actually more realistic that way after a fashion)
2) you're moving fast. This makes it hard to get into and stay in the notch, which is made worse by #1
3) too little chaff - feed this thing chaff until it leaves you alone
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:40 AM   #27
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From my very basic understanding, in your video of the second shot, you didn't appear to be notching the missile ... it was at roughly 90degs (87deg) on your beam, but you were approx 30degs off its nose as it closed in using PN. This would give it a non-zero relative speed to you, ie. not be in its doppler filter speed range. Shouldn't you be at 90 to it, ie. forming a 'T' to the missile?? Do 54s use doppler radar or non-doppler radar? Was the missile closing from an uphill or downhill shot?
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:08 PM   #28
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Notching is about having the same approach speed as the ground. If the missile is a perfect 90 degrees away from your flight path vector, you'll be more still, as far as doppler is concerned, than a tree bending in the wind. (Unless you have exposed props, but DCS doesn't seem to simulate that.)
AFAICT, missiles going for chaff is a random chance, though the chances seem greatly increased by notching compared to not, at least in general. Then there's what happens with ground clutter in your cell.

Back on topic, I don't remember what missiles an amraam will target from maddog, but I distinctly remember sa-10 (s-300) was among the things it would target.
Brute forcing your way into a sa-10 zone is one of the very few reasons it can be legit to load 10 amraams on a hornet that doesn't even have TWS. You'd want to have enough hornets to have more missiles than the site, and THEN have some payload to put on whatever your actual target was.
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