Alt restriction on dropping GBU12s?

Running into similar issues with LGB on the Persian Gulf map only.

 

I wait 8 to 10 seconds before lasing and the bomb falls short or long from the target.

 

Booted up the training mission on the Nevada map for LGB, and i did hit the target everytime.

 

I fly to the target with the target steering line centerd, pickle, wait 8 to 10 seconds before lasing, once overhead the target i make a left turn and continue lasing. No interruption in the lasing and the bomb fall off target everytime. This is only happening since the latest update to the F-16 module. In the Nevada map it works like a charm.

Couple of things wrong with this technique if I'm reading it correctly. First of all (of course depending on your release altitude) "waiting 8 to 10 seconds before lasing" - is really the same thing as continuous lasing. From 20K HAT, time of fall (TOF) is around 30 sec. If you're waiting 10 sec and then turning the laser on, that means you are still lasing for about 20 sec of the rest of the TOF. Which to the bomb is still essentially the same as having the laser on at pickle. If you are going to delay lase, figure out how long the total TOF is and then turn the laser on in the LAST 10 sec. Of course without a TTI counter in the HUD or TGP, its guesswork.

The other thing is if you are waiting to turn when the aircraft is OVER the target, you are maneuvering pretty much at the worst possible time for the Pod. The key is to "lean away" as Federf described earlier and either maintain the bank through impact or roll out and be wings level well before impact. But the point is you want the aircraft as stable as possible in the last 10-15 sec of the TOF as that is the critical point where any movement of the laser spot is going to really deplete the bombs energy. You want to make the jet the most stable platform possible in those last few critical secs before impact. I don't know how well DCS models all this, but that's the main technique.

To add onto Federf's discussion about "podium effect", i.e. the situation where you are trying to lase a vertical wall of a building or something similar - it is imperative that you check away/lean away to keep the crosshairs on the same vertical face that you want to hit and in the direction the bomb is flying. If it goes to the side wall or the back of the building because you flew directly over the target, the bomb will lose the laser spot and stop guiding at that point. Wherever the fin deflection happened to be at that point during its "bang-bang" guidance will stop and the fins will go to neutral while the seeker will continue looking for the spot. And it will most certainly miss if it doesn't ever re-acquire the laser spot.

However, all that being said, if the target is a horizontal feature like a vehicle, tank, bunker, runway, flat roof of a building, etc - then you can just fly straight thru and overfly the target and the bomb will still see the laser spot with no problem as long as the crosshairs are on the top of whatever it is you're trying to hit.

I just did a bunch of these on the NTTR on Dogbone lake and went 6 for 6 with both GBU-12 and 10s plinking T-72 tanks using both Continuous and delay lase from 10K to 22K HAT. Also did some as a Lean away and some as a straight through. All shacks. I'll try the PG module next to see if there is any difference.

Okay, noted down your remarks.

My target is a command post, which is really not that high a live the ground and therefore there is no podium effect. But I tried with your comments and it still doesn’t hit the targets on the Persian gulf map. I don’t have any issues with Nevada or Caucasus map. Only in Persian gulf map.

I hank you for the inputs.

Okay, noted down your remarks.

 

My target is a command post, which is really not that high a live the ground and therefore there is no podium effect. But I tried with your comments and it still doesn’t hit the targets on the Persian gulf map. I don’t have any issues with Nevada or Caucasus map. Only in Persian gulf map.

 

I hank you for the inputs.

I just built a mission to test out GBU drops on the PG map (near Al Dhafra AB). Dropped 4xGBU-12 and 2xGBU-10 with mixed delivery profiles from 8K to 25K HAT and some with delay lase and some with continuous lase. 50% were fly straight ahead after release and let the pod spin and the other 50% were 40-50 deg check aways. All hits. Nothing seemed unusual.

Hmmm, then I must be doing something really wrong. Thank you for taking the time to test it out, I really appreciate it.

If I did understand you correctly, I need to offset from target once the bomb has left my wing right ? The pod being on the right cheek, a left turn makes sense right ?

Now, when dropping from 20K, 15 to 20 potatoes count down is right ? Since we have early version of LGB with Bang bang guidance principle. Also with Bang Bang guidance I think it would make sense to pick up speed to give my bomb more kinetik energy ? Favoring a dive delivery instead of a level delivery especially with the GBU-10 ?

With a moving target, if I understand correctly everything you and feeder have written it would make sens to drop LGB on a moving car while facing the car instead of chasing it ?

Thanks again for the inputs, would be cool to have a tutorial on how to drop and LGB, not really about how to configure but more about techniques and limitations of the GBU-10/12 and especially about speeds and altitudes.

Hmmm, then I must be doing something really wrong. Thank you for taking the time to test it out, I really appreciate it. No worries. I was curious myself as I had a couple of previous unexplained misses on the NTTR.

 

If I did understand you correctly, I need to offset from target once the bomb has left my wing right ? The pod being on the right cheek, a left turn makes sense right ? Not 100% required. I was successful doing a check away and roll out, a lean away with a constant bank angle and a drive straight ahead. All seemed to work fine in DCS. The check away is the more common method IRL both to maintain standoff from the target area threats such as small arms and Manpads but also for potential podium effect. If there are no threats and there is no podium issue, just go straight and the Lightening Pod in DCS seems to handle it fine.

Now, when dropping from 20K, 15 to 20 potatoes count down is right ? Since we have early version of LGB with Bang bang guidance principle. Also with Bang Bang guidance I think it would make sense to pick up speed to give my bomb more kinetik energy ? Favoring a dive delivery instead of a level delivery especially with the GBU-10 ? A 20K HAT (Height above Target) release is probably in the 28-30 sec range. Again delay lase is not necessarily required for a release that high. It won't hurt, but given there is no TTI countdown in the F-16 HUD yet, I would suggest do continuous lase for now. And yes, faster is better for kinetic energy of the bomb, up to a point. There is a Mach limit on the PWII seekers. Usually a 500-550 KTAS release speed is ideal. And yes, a dive delivery would give the bomb some more smash if you were releasing from a lower altitude. But a Medium Alt LEVEL delivery around 20K would still be an energy gaining release and a diving delivery is far more workload for little gain. One final technique is to slow down a little bit immediately after pickle so you reduce the closure rate to the target.

 

With a moving target, if I understand correctly everything you and feeder have written it would make sens to drop LGB on a moving car while facing the car instead of chasing it? In theory, yes - but hitting a mover with a PWII is really really difficult. Especially determining where to set the release point. If its doing more than about 20mph / 30kmh. its likely not going to be very successful.

 

Thanks again for the inputs, would be cool to have a tutorial on how to drop and LGB, not really about how to configure but more about techniques and limitations of the GBU-10/12 and especially about speeds and altitudes.

My suggestion would be to start simple and continuous lase on a level straight through attack and then gradually add in the check away or lean away maneuver while still using CONT LASE. Once you get good at that and once you get a sense for the TOF from various altitudes- then practice some delay lase.

On a related note, one thing that bugs me about the Viper is that you have to hold the trigger down the entire time you want to fire the laser. I would prefer an ON/OFF button. Plus it feels very unnatural to pull the trigger for anything other than firing the gun. I assume its really mechanized that way on the Viper, but I still don't like it.

 

On a related note, one thing that bugs me about the Viper is that you have to hold the trigger down the entire time you want to fire the laser. I would prefer an ON/OFF button. Plus it feels very unnatural to pull the trigger for anything other than firing the gun. I assume its really mechanized that way on the Viper, but I still don't like it.

Call me crazy but I swear all you had to when the Viper was first released was press the lase button/trigger once and since a recent update you have to hold it down.

Anyone know if the logic has changed?

About that laser that you have to fire manually, there is also an auto made function where you enter the time before impact when the laser has to fire on it’s own. It that DED page is not completed yet, it is the DED laser page.