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Degraded Su-27 aerodynamic lift


Maverick Su-35S

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At the moment, I do not trust that the way it was tuned reflects the same values found by NASA as I do not believe that what I see in DCS reflects the real plane, sorry!

 

The only thing I have left to say is prove it or go home :)

 

PS: You do realize F-16's are riding a limiter, right? It can easily have a lower AoA peak than an eagle, and guaranteed to have a lower g peak. Also, please reference test loads that there are performance charts for. The charts for F-15C with -220s start at 37000lbs gross weight clean configuration IIRC.


Edited by GGTharos

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So far, this remains the truth:

https://youtu.be/DMEdbwS4Fhs?t=1389

 

This is one of the reasons I disagree that the real F-15 proves better turning performance (clean or guns only weight) than the Su-27 and why I don't trust DCS, anymore!

When you can't prove something with words, let the maths do the talking.

I have an insatiable passion for helping simulated aircraft fly realistically!

Sincerely, your correct flight model simulation advisor!

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Actually this 'truth' is disputed even on the Russian forums. The USAF denies such a fight was ever arranged or authorized - they even deny it happened.

 

Today, you can see them dogfighting over nevada, sicne USAF owns a couple of flankers now, and they don't do quite so indisputably well as you want them to. But hey, maybe those top-notch USAF pilots just suck?

 

Don't care why you disagree or why you distrust - prove it's wrong or go just stop. Enough of this waste of time.


Edited by GGTharos
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So far, this remains the truth:

https://youtu.be/DMEdbwS4Fhs?t=1389

 

This is one of the reasons I disagree that the real F-15 proves better turning performance (clean or guns only weight) than the Su-27 and why I don't trust DCS, anymore!

 

Those are stories, not data and are entirely subjective. You don’t believe the Cl data from NASA. I provide that data. You change the subject again. Forever ‘moving the goal posts’.

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@GGTharos So did they (USAF) broke some wings on Ukrainian Flankers there over Nevada since they are pushing them to the limit? :)

 

Having slats was proved to be positive in increasing critical AoA since WW2. If Eagle doesn't have them and Flanker does, who gets better STR? Eagle is energy fighter and flanker close combat one. That's the whole story. Who thinks that plane flies by mind strength instead of aerodynamics, is wrong. One thing which is wrong from beginning regarding ED module policy and that, in my opinion, having multiple flight models for each airframe. That is completely wrong approach from aspect of flight physics since one module is entangled by mystical forces and other is not or just wraith-ed. What is the purpose of "simplified" in game settings if its made on some modules by default. Cockpit interaction level, sure, but flight dynamics, nah.

 

So we can't take anything serious from ED if we have different external FMs.

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What is the purpose of "simplified" in game settings if its made on some modules by default.

....

So we can't take anything serious from ED if we have different external FMs.

 

This is just a ridiculous, deliberately provocative statement that has no grounding in fact.

Cheers.

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@GGTharos So did they (USAF) broke some wings on Ukrainian Flankers there over Nevada since they are pushing them to the limit? :)

 

Unlike complaining virtual pilots, those guys know how to fly - they won't be hauling 12g turns at low fuel loads, or 9g turns with a full tank of gas.

 

They can max-perform the aircraft no problem, and so can any one in-game. And people do.

 

Eagle is energy fighter and flanker close combat one. That's the whole story.

 

No it isn't, it's just BS from people who don't understand angles/radius tactics vs energy tactics, and sit there thinking that an 'angle/radius fighter' can't be out-rated and and 'energy fighter' can't be out-energied.

 

If a flanker merges at 400kts and an eagle at 250, who's the energy fighter now?

 

One thing which is wrong from beginning regarding ED module policy and that, in my opinion, having multiple flight models for each airframe. That is completely wrong approach from aspect of flight physics since one module is entangled by mystical forces and other is not or just wraith-ed.

 

That's ridiculous. You don't need to care what's under the hood and who made it, all you care about is input and output.

Also, what's this 'multiple flight models for each airframe' thing? They have one flight model ... each. Did you mean to say that different entities build the flight model for each module? That was intended and it's fine. Again, input and output.

 

You and Maverick both like to bang on your aerodynamics knowledge drum, but when it comes down to doing work, you don't bother to produce any proof whatsoever, and Maverick does work but just doesn't manage to do it correctly.

Seriously, WTF people.


Edited by GGTharos
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Well, tharos, r u sure there are no real fighter pilots here? Maybee they are boored with regular procedures? U can never know. Maybee some of them are real aircraft designers that work on wind tunnel testing and research.. Man can't be sure, right. On the other hand, what performance charts from pilots manual say about stall speed, itr, str, max speed, climb comparison between theese two, where on chart and in whos favor? But before going deeper, what airfoil is used on Su27 main wing?

PS. If RL pilots have never overstressed wings to broke off how come that they fall off in DCS? Maybe DCS pilots have too strong arms and super high resistance to g-locs? If so, is that real? And regarding my homework, if you respected mr. Tharos, send me 3d model of DCS integrated eagle and flanker, and ill give you back comparrison data of each plane sweetspots with aerodynamic charts. But not before telling me what airfoils they use?

 

 

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Well, tharos, r u sure there are no real fighter pilots here? Maybee they are boored with regular procedures? U can never know.

 

In fact I do know. Don't maybe me. I don't mention real pilots because people who do not wish to be named/outed won't talk to you again if you do that to them, and they won't back you up. In other words, the only valid sources are documents available to us, not the implication that you know someone who knows something.

Prove with what's available to us or just stop.

 

On the other hand, what performance charts from pilots manual say about stall speed, itr, str, max speed, climb comparison between theese two, where on chart and in whos favor?
You have the charts for each aircraft, you can read'em...or even super-impose.

 

But before going deeper, what airfoil is used on Su27 main wing?
Who cares? You model aircraft performance, not airfoils, and a whole bunch of performance data is available.

 

And regarding my homework, if you respected mr. Tharos, send me 3d model of DCS integrated eagle and flanker, and ill give you back comparrison data of each plane sweetspots with aerodynamic charts.
There's plenty of information to work with. CFDs are not required.

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I can get along many things said here but one not. How come someone can develope sucessfull simulator product without advanced knowledge of science behind? What competence to relly on? Its like saying GFYS to wing tunnel guys and going for test ride. Airfoils are so damn important if one wants to discuss expected performance. Airfoil makes charts in first place and egg. slats are integral part of airfoil metamorphosis regarding to flight regime. I take side on this discussion and that goes along Maverick's claims. Eagle is OPed again. Tune it down a litlle bit. And set blackout point before wing rip offs in Flanker or other ones. That should be closer to reality. Eagle pilots should learn to conserve energy as on high AoA heavy buffet occurs unsimulated in DCS. Hugs and kisses to everyone here ;)

 

 

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I can get along many things said here but one not. How come someone can develope sucessfull simulator product without advanced knowledge of science behind? What competence to relly on?

 

PM Yo-Yo, ask him for his resume.

 

Its like saying GFYS to wing tunnel guys and going for test ride. Airfoils are so damn important if one wants to discuss expected performance.
We don't need to discuss expected performance because the performance is already known. How come you're unable to test the FM against known data collected by flying said aircraft?

 

Eagle pilots should learn to conserve energy as on high AoA heavy buffet occurs unsimulated in DCS.
It's simulated as per NASA studies by ... flying the real aircraft. Not CFDs, not wind-tunnels. What a novelty, I know. Get over yourself ;)
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Can you prove that it's drastically changed?

 

I'm well aware that the flight control system changed, which presents its own challenges. The flanker FM conforms to the data we have. The eagle FM conforms to the data we have. It's also well known that tuning an FM takes a long time - I participated in testing the eagle FM and it certainly took a long time to tune that up to match data. As development went on, more and more data came in that clarified things and provided more accuracy for some of its behaviors. I've no doubt that the Su-27 went through a similar process.

 

You have nothing but speculation based on what-ifs. Like I said, the discussion is not worthwhile because all you're doing is discussing feelings, not anything concrete.

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Still, haven't seen anyone pointing out the Eagle or Flanker's problems/issues with real-life performance charts. Article or pilots reports don't have much value I believe.

 

ED isn't going to change anything in the FM because someone said it was wrong. It's important to make these affirmations based on real data, and not articles or theories taken from the internet.

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Still, haven't seen anyone pointing out the Eagle or Flanker's problems/issues with real-life performance charts. Article or pilots reports don't have much value I believe.

 

ED isn't going to change anything in the FM because someone said it was wrong. It's important to make these affirmations based on real data, and not articles or theories taken from the internet.

 

Agreed. The arguments in this thread are purely conjecture.

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If its allready well known to ED then why it is so drasticly and obviously changed with each new update? How come module flight performance margin is not sealed from beginning?

 

 

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Remember this :

 

I think you're mistaken about changes to pitch response. I have 1.5 Flanker tracks that play back perfectly with 2.5 plus the hot fixes. So none of that's been touched. If it had, those tracks would be broken.

Cheers.

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I have found an SU-27SK flight manual on the internet in russian.

 

http://www.avsimrus.com/f/documents-16/su-27-sk-flight-manual-21438.html

 

According to this the aircraft should reach the 8g limit at around 740 kmh indicated at 1000 m and 50% fuel with 2 R27 and 2 R73 and the AOA limit increases to 24 degrees from 22 as the aircraft slows from M0.7 to M0.5

 

If I remember correctly (cannot test until saturday) the FBW limited AOA stays af 22 deg without override and the plane reaches the 8g limit at a higher speed with the same conditions.

 

In direct control mode (S) I was able to complete 360 turns at around 13 sec (bleeding speed from 600kmh to less than 250) but with the limiter it feels a bit too sluggish. I think that if there is any problem here, that might be regarding the pitch axis control law not increasing the limit AOA to 24 and the really slow g onset. In direct control everything is great if I manage not to kill myself :)

 

I cannot upload from my tablet for some reason, thats why I could only give you the link, not the actual pages

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I am, I asked YoYo.

 

I do believe you both, but please explain it a bit more, how that percentage is calculated and which tank groups count in.

 

Anyway here is some real data (I hope) to work with so that the ppl debating the problem here can run their test flights against it. I will certainly do once I get home on saturday.

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Apparently certain tanks (wing tanks for sure) are not considered 'internal fuel'. I didn't get a more detailed explanation unfortunately and I can't read the manual :/

 

I do believe you both, but please explain it a bit more, how that percentage is calculated and which tank groups count in.

 

Anyway here is some real data (I hope) to work with so that the ppl debating the problem here can run their test flights against it. I will certainly do once I get home on saturday.

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