DCS, AV-8B Harrier, CCRP Dive Toss.

Thanks a lot for sharing these very informative videos.

That's a really interesting technique.

I especially appreciate the fact that you just make use of what we have in the Harrier regardless of being or not being implemented to perfection or some individuals liking.:thumbup:

its not really missing much. There are no cues for lofting bombs as I believe there should be... but the weapon aiming computer is calculating the forward throw and releasing at the CCRP mark during pullupp... thats how loft works. So I reckon all that is missing is the cue to pull up.

Thank you, Dangerman, for your remark.

I was more referring to some participants to this discussion in particular but in general to the whole Razbam AV-8B forum.

I find it appreciable to see someone making use of the available means resourcefully rather than complaining about the details that may or may not be simulated accurately while declining to just have fun with the product as is.:)

But I’m actually abusing this posting with OT stuff. Apologies.

Agreed, it has enough to keep it highly entertaining and doesn't stop most of us enjoying it......any missing bits can be worked around...just like pilots do!

And to be honest, I have no idea of what is actually missing... but it works fine for me..

except perhaps....

1. I wish I could slave the TGP :(

2. I wish my wings wouldn't fall off when bunting over at high speed. Never happened to me on any real aeroplanes I overstressed! ;)

How its supposed to work on the real plane.

1. Select STRS display.

2. Select the appropriate weapon to be delivered.

3. Select proper fuzing options for store.

4. Select AUTO delivery mode using either

cage/uncage button or ACP MODE switch.

5. Select the LOFT option on the DDI stores

display.

6. Select WPN on UFC and cue ANGL if a

different loft angle is desired (4° to 38°, Day

Attack) (9° to 38°, Night Attack and Radar).

8. Continue run-in with no restrictions on

maneuvering until the ramp up tone begins

(coincides with the release cue appearing).

Once the pullup begins, any maneuvering that

causes the aircraft to exceed 45° pitch or roll

will cause the delivery mode to revert to

AUTO.

9. With pullup cue displayed, depress bomb

pickle button.

10. At the first and second short tones, prepare

to begin 4g pullup.

11. At the third tone begin the ramp up and

fly a smooth 4g wings level pull to the cue for

weapons release.

Notes:

1. The LOFT delivery mode is designed to

bomb specific INS/GPS coordinates (i.e.,

EHSI designation). Due to the long ranges and

low grazing angles associated with LOFT, do

not use the TDC to ²sweeten² the TD diamond.

2. The DMT (TV) can be used to look at the

designation; however, do not attempt a TV

lock on. Although a TV lock on can occur,

there are insufficient angular rates for an

ARBS height above target. During the pullup,

sufficient angular rates are generated and

the system switches from BARO or RALT to

ARBS height above target, thereby causing

the TD diamond to shift. This adversely

affects the LOFT delivery solution.

3. Do not attempt to chase the pullup cue (4g

programmer) after the ramp up tone, this can

result in poor accuracy caused by the MC

attempting to compensate for quick pitch

changes. Instead, make smooth corrections

Number 3, is where it starts to go tits.

Number 5, is where you start to make your own rules.

Thanks for the info. I'm sure we will get that system one day.

..

To clarify CCRP toss bombing and LOFT bombing are two different things.

To clarify further 'some participants' still have plenty of fun with the harrier with what it has, they just don't find it at all acceptable to discount legitimate critique of the state of affairs with the module because it doesn't jive with their narrative.

Given how VEAO collapsed and took their ball with them, that does no one any good and is extremely detrimental to the consumers in this age of early access everything.

I completely disagree with the sentiment of 'I have fun therefore you don't' and the attempts to shift the status quo to one of we should all be patient and happy that the module is still in early access and this incomplete.

This grandiose attitude and the following completely irrational reasoning behind discounting everyone else's opinions is why I responded as such afterwards.

It may be difficult to comprehend that it is in fact however an AV-8B harrier.

If you have no idea about how the AV-8B works and indeed, no desire to use the AV-8B or any of its more advanced systems in order to cherry pick scenarios to pretend like it's a different aircraft, that's perfectly fine to do.

Just don't get offended by the fact that by now we should all have more interesting and appropriate methods to be used, such as LOFT or indeed simply an ASL that isn't borked and that being smug about locking oneself in a echo chamber of self gratification isn't any good for anyone or anything, one should be annoying that we don't have these things.

Those are just the facts, no one (at least I know of) is 'declining to have fun' with the module purely because they want it to be finished and to fly the harrier to it's fullest, the logic or lack thereof to reach this conclusion completely and utterly escapes me.

However... there's absolutely no need to feel so upset because the reality doesn't fit your narrative and get offended because you dislike an opinion on them.

Everyone is having fun with the half baked broken module, some just don't find the rate of progress acceptable for a module of this value in early access for this long and absolutely will not let up on that.

That doesn't prevent folk from enjoying the module, doing CCRP Toss bombing, nor appreciating the ungodly wings level flight that Holbeach demonstrates on the pull up in his videos (seriously, how?)

Carry on tossing and have fun ;)

How its supposed to work on the real plane.

 

1. Select STRS display.

2. Select the appropriate weapon to be delivered.

3. Select proper fuzing options for store.

4. Select AUTO delivery mode using either

cage/uncage button or ACP MODE switch.

5. Select the LOFT option on the DDI stores

display.

6. Select WPN on UFC and cue ANGL if a

different loft angle is desired (4° to 38°, Day

Attack) (9° to 38°, Night Attack and Radar).

8. Continue run-in with no restrictions on

maneuvering until the ramp up tone begins

(coincides with the release cue appearing).

Once the pullup begins, any maneuvering that

causes the aircraft to exceed 45° pitch or roll

will cause the delivery mode to revert to

AUTO.

9. With pullup cue displayed, depress bomb

pickle button.

10. At the first and second short tones, prepare

to begin 4g pullup.

11. At the third tone begin the ramp up and

fly a smooth 4g wings level pull to the cue for

weapons release.

 

Notes:

 

1. The LOFT delivery mode is designed to

bomb specific INS/GPS coordinates (i.e.,

EHSI designation). Due to the long ranges and

low grazing angles associated with LOFT, do

not use the TDC to ²sweeten² the TD diamond.

 

2. The DMT (TV) can be used to look at the

designation; however, do not attempt a TV

lock on. Although a TV lock on can occur,

there are insufficient angular rates for an

ARBS height above target. During the pullup,

sufficient angular rates are generated and

the system switches from BARO or RALT to

ARBS height above target, thereby causing

the TD diamond to shift. This adversely

affects the LOFT delivery solution.

 

3. Do not attempt to chase the pullup cue (4g

programmer) after the ramp up tone, this can

result in poor accuracy caused by the MC

attempting to compensate for quick pitch

changes. Instead, make smooth corrections

Thanks, hopefully this gets worked out.

Harlikwin's diagram is quite useful because it emphasises that it is all pullup stuff that is missing as far as the profile is concerned. Tones etc and pull up cues. The actual dynamic release is essentially there, just not the programming of what angle you want to LOFT the bomb..and thus give the cues. You could stop manually at any one of those angles and the bomb will come off as long as the jet is at a parameter such that the weapon can reach the target.

The difference between LOFT and TOSS is that loft is not supposed to be under G ....and TOSS bombing is.. Thats what the RAF/RN does and how I did all of my LOFT/TOSS bombing. TOSS is better suited as a dive towards target and pull up to bring the release cue towards you so that you release under G and get out out of weapon self-frag envelope (SD 10^-x in wartime 10 ^-x+1 in peacetime). Dive Toss also gets eyes on target and you can ackle the mark in the dive if you are quick, unlike LOFT bombing which as described by Harlikwin's text, cannot be ackled and is dependant on good navkit position and target position data.

Thats all I have to say except Harrier model is great for real mud moving .......apart from not being able to slave TGP and wings breaking off under -ve G over stress. :)

Im now out of this discussion

Harlikwin's diagram is quite useful because it emphasises that it is all pullup stuff that is missing as far as the profile is concerned. Tones etc and pull up cues. The actual dynamic release is essentially there, just not the programming of what angle you want to LOFT the bomb..and thus give the cues. You could stop manually at any one of those angles and the bomb will come off as long as the jet is at a parameter such that the weapon can reach the target.

 

The difference between LOFT and TOSS is that loft is not supposed to be under G ....and TOSS bombing is.. Thats what the RAF/RN does and how I did all of my LOFT/TOSS bombing. TOSS is better suited as a dive towards target and pull up to bring the release cue towards you so that you release under G and get out out of weapon self-frag envelope (SD 10^-x in wartime 10 ^-x+1 in peacetime). Dive Toss also gets eyes on target and you can ackle the mark in the dive if you are quick, unlike LOFT bombing which as described by Harlikwin's text, cannot be ackled and is dependant on good navkit position and target position data.

 

Thats all I have to say except Harrier model is great for real mud moving .......apart from not being able to slave TGP and wings breaking off under -ve G over stress. :)

 

Im now out of this discussion

I value your input.

..

I value your input.

..

I think we all value his input.

And my comment was only meant to illustrate how it should work. And even then I didn't go into detail about setting the actual bomb release angles. Not, that you should do it the way you are doing it, I'm not into telling people how to play the game, just pointing out how it works IRL is different.

The issue comes with the fact you're making excuses that do not need making for an incomplete module simply because you're indulging your Brit in the Falklands fantasy with it.

 

It's fine for you that you're immersed and entertain yourself with pretending like you're in a Sea Harrier, the ire comes when defending very poor conduct simply because you don't like the reality poking in the fantasy bubble that you've created for yourself around a half baked module.

 

These are work arounds for incomplete and/or broken systems that should be working by now, the fact you or anyone would be making 'tutorial' videos on how to work around missing features is in no way a positive thing.

 

We're all doing stuff, the difference is we're a bit fed up with the bodgejobs and have moved passed the point of being amused by them whilst you're still finding them so novel.

We want the stuff it could be doing and how it should be doing it and these hacks just highlight the missing capabilities of the aircraft that we should have by now.

 

You may well be satisfied with spending 50-60 odd on an AV8B Harrier module in order to just stick an RAF skin on and pretend like you're fighting Argentinians the 80's, most are not.

You may well be enjoying playing in the box that the Harrier came in, it's a great box, you have a marvellous imagination and that's great.

 

That doesn't mean everyone else who bought an AV8B should be satisfied with just the box, or should be happy that they can stick an RAF roundel on it and call it a day.

 

People want the Aircraft they paid for, not to be fannying around with half mile inaccuracies and missing range cues, borked ASL lines, non-existent loft profiles, broken radios, missing CAS pages, incomplete navigation, broken-fixed-broken features, sidearm volumes etc. etc.

 

Especially after this long.

Need a tissue?

Dive Toss slicks, versus, Low Level Snakeye retarded.

CCRP, (auto), using 12 x Mk 82 in a Dive Toss, Versus, Low Level 10 x Snakeye. Which is best in this case? Both cases need to be spotted visual and marked with DMT (Dual Mode Tracker) first. Convoy protected by: 1 x SA6 Kub, 1 x OSA 8, 1 x SA9 Strella, 5 x SA18 Igla, 1 x Shilka, 2 x Zu 23. The Osa is the most dangerous in the LL DT attack and will get you, if you don't get the job done by the 1st escape valley. So, will a Low Level, under the RADAR be better?.

..

When Dive Toss isn't possible, due to flat land and heavy SAM presence, Low Level, under the Radar, is the only way to go.

Mk 83, 1000ib, is more accurate than 500 lb Mk 82, which always land long (Update: They are falling square in this mission). This is LL toss bombing against a submarine replenishment operation in Sennoy Bay. Heavy SAM protection is: 2 Strella 10 SA 13, Osa SA8, 4 IGLA SA18, Shilka Cannon, Grisha SA8 30K, Molniya 30K.

Note: ASL doesn't work correctly in the Harrier, as is evident in these videos, but it is not required at any time for these types of delivery (Dive Toss or Toss). The target marker or direction arrow, are in view at all times and so the ASL is not needed.

Update: It has been confirmed, by DECOY, that the ASL is being worked on. 16/7/19.

..

Memory aid video. For practice with Sidearm/Maverick.

Maverick IR video, works in left MFD only, after stores page.

Plan: Load, to attack Osa SA8, (plus, 8 23 mm, 1 Shilka, 3 Strella 1, 4 Igla) protected bridge, shown in 1st video:

2 x Sidearm 8.9 miles, plus 2 x Maverick AGM 65 G, 7.5 miles, 6 x Mk 83 CCRP Dive Toss, 4.5 miles, 6/2/010 @ 550 kts. min.

Update:

Harrier:

Sidearm lock and launch @ 10.6 nm max for an Osa kill. Fire both to maintain trim.

Osa:

Lock Harrier @ 11.6, launch @ 7.0, death by Osa @ 4.5 nm. Therefore Dive Toss is not possible, (on a straight run in). Only Low Level CCRP Toss is possible, to kill the bridge and prevent the convoy crossing.

So. Sidearm the Osa, hit the deck before SAM launch, perform LL CCRP Toss. Or, approach LL, pop up, Sidearm Osa, perform Dive Toss. Or, Sidearm Osa, pull left, avoid missiles, carry on Dive Toss.

I've settled on:

Sidearm the Osa at max range, turn hard right to break the lock. Turn back and perform a Dive Toss on the bridge. Use 2 AGM on armour.

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DCS, Harrier, Sidearm/Dive toss Mk83/Maverick. Bridge attack.

This is a training mission I set up for myself, in order to learn how to use Sidearm and Maverick missiles, with variations on this theme. To attack this bridge with 6 x Mk 83 1000 lb bombs, we must first remove the Osa SA8 SAM. This is achieved with a Sidearm AGM-122 missile. A Dive Toss attack can then be performed, to keep out of the range of short range SAM/AAA defenders and destroy the bridge. IR AGM 65G Mavericks are then used to kill artillery. This is an uncut mission, with a few replays at the end.

Update ASL bug, 21/3/19:

=DECOY=

This has been fixed and it currently with the internal testing team for review.

__________________

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Sidearm Training Mission.

Destroy the Kub SA6 bridge defender, the Osa SA8 convoy defender and the bridge. Land at Kutaisi.

You have: 4 x Sidearm, 1 x AGM 65G, 1 x Mk 83.

I've learnt an awful lot about how to use Sidearm, in a heavy threat environment, using this scenario.

Notes.

Sensor has a curious drop down when locking on, rather than pointing at the target. I don't know if this is correct.

A kill is rare, if the target is moving. Not correct, it should track it on the move, but it always lands behind. A shot from the rear has a better chance.

Missile doesn't loft after leaving the rail. Not correct, but you can do it yourself to help clear trees etc.

Missile hits the antenna, not the hull. Correct.

IR cooler is not required.

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DCS, Harrier, SEAD. Sidearm, Maverick.

SA3, SA6, SA8, targets.

Training mission.

SEAD. 4 x Sidearm, 2 x Maverick. SA3, guarding oil storage depot. Kub 6 SA6 , guarding bridge. Osa SA8 guarding convoy, are the targets. 1st target is SA3, which is also inside Kub 6 range circle. Osa kill, was a rather lucky, long range, rear ender. Close in defence, is also provided by, 7 x ZU 23mm, 3 x Strella 1 and 2 x IGLA. SA3 does very little, so I will replace it.

I can't get the SA2 or 3 to activate, I must be missing something, so I've replaced them with a SA 10 Grumble set, which is proving very interesting with its 3 radar system.

So the mission is now: Destroy the SA 10 site, plus the Osa SA 8 and the SA 6 SAMs, with the above weapons.

I've sorted the SA 2/3 problem. I'd forgotten it needs the P19 radar included. This site has been added to Kutaisi airfield.

The SA 10, Ahalsopeli Defense Research Establishment, SA 6 bridge defence and SA 2 Kutaisi sites, now cover each other, as the enemy advances across the bridge.

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SEAD Training Misssion, as it stands.

Clear the Rioni River Valley of Russian SAM site radars, in preparation for an attack by Coalition aircraft supporting Georgian Army units.

This is a, SAM rich, airspace, dominated by the long range Grumble, which covers the whole area. Down in the Daisies, is the only way to survive.

I did it like this:

destroy the SA 10 SAM site radar (1 scanner only is required to disable site, SN66 M), defending Ahalsopeli Defence Research Establishment. 1 x Sidearm.

Destroy Kub 6 radar at the bridge. 2 x Sidearm

Destroy Osa 8 in convoy. 1 x Sidearm (missed). 1 x Maverick.

Destroy 2 SA-2 radar at Kutaisi airbase. 1 x Maverick, Gun.

Land at Senaki Airbase or Tarawa.

Not perfect, but we got the job done.

Unedited replay with a few missile shots added at the end.

OBS. for all videos.

GL..

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Holbeach AWR copy copy .miz

From the F18 side of the house FYI...

Lex Talonis:

"just an FYI .... we never lofted ordinance. It is inherently inaccurate.

Any aerodynamic force imparted on the air-frame, thus the bomb, during release makes the release cue wildly inaccurate. whats more, lofting the bomb makes the flight profile considerably more susceptible to any meteorological induced disruption. The aircraft should be in as stable a state during release.

That said, no idea how the game does it."

Thanks for the videos, looks great fun - and nice flying too!

Adapt and enjoy, or leave and moan - each to their own and I know which I prefer :music_whistling:

PS RAF Grey every time for me too :thumbup:

:beer:

From the F18 side of the house FYI...

 

Lex Talonis:

 

"just an FYI .... we never lofted ordinance. It is inherently inaccurate.

 

Any aerodynamic force imparted on the air-frame, thus the bomb, during release makes the release cue wildly inaccurate. whats more, lofting the bomb makes the flight profile considerably more susceptible to any meteorological induced disruption. The aircraft should be in as stable a state during release.

 

 

That said, no idea how the game does it."

"It is inherently inaccurate".

That's why I like it. It's difficult to get consistent hits. It needs a lot of practice.

Apart from the lack of cue, it is exactly the same as a real Harrier did it.

..

Thanks for the videos, looks great fun - and nice flying too!

Adapt and enjoy, or leave and moan - each to their own and I know which I prefer :music_whistling:

 

PS RAF Grey every time for me too :thumbup:

 

:beer:

Thanks. It is great fun.:laugh:

..

"It is inherently inaccurate".

 

 

 

That's why I like it. It's difficult to get consistent hits. It needs a lot of practice.

Apart from the lack of cue, it is exactly the same as a real Harrier did it.

..

No worries, it was more his comment on atmospherics which aren't well modeled in DCS to begin with I found interesting. I know you can set surface and winds at different altitudes and directions, and I assume the engine does calculate those effects (at least it does appear to when I'm just dropping the bombs from higher altitudes)

Also, have you noticed the harrier bombing system compensating for wind at all on any unguided delivery? I haven't seen it do it so I'm not sure its actually implemented.

@ Harlikwin.

I don't have the updated ASL and DTM yet. I'll give it a good look as soon as I get it.

..