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AV-8B+


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Current AV-8B modeled is quite limited in its abilities. No true AA ability, pretty much just bounce a few mavericks around and show off the vertical landing stunts. Quite hard to make a decent campaign that's not boring. Just wonder if RAZBAM can get us AV-8B+ instead?

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Pretty sure it is planned, they chose to do the NA variant because they are still waiting for ED to get their ground radar implemented so RAZBAM can use it in their modules. It will probably not be a freebie like the MiG-19S though.

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It would be great to have a more advanced version included in a new module, but current version should be finished first.

 

Testify!

 

I too would love the AV-8B Harrier II+ with radar but please oh please finish the Night Attack variant first.

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Try a search, has been discussed before.

I believe it was suggested as being very viable, but dependant upon ED completing development of the radar for the F18, which is nothing like close to being done.

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Yeah I think alot of people would like to see the + model, but it needs the radar done by ED first. I "think" in terms of interior modeling the cockpit should be the same, and exterior is close? So it may not be that hard to do.

 

Actually I think alot more people want the Original Sea Harrier, circa '82. But thats just a guess and that would be a whole new plane. Albeit they could probably recycle some of the FM and how they got it to work for the current harrier.

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For what is worth, I would prefer the AV8B+
Same

 

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No splashing Argies for you guys eh... Well, no accounting for taste ;) I actually want both, but I'd want the falklands first.

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Op, that's probably because the Harrier is primarily A2G focused, MOST Harriers lack extensive a2a capability, because... like... it's unsuited for it? Maybe an air superiority plane, like NOT a Harrier, would be your fix @@

 

Anyway, there has been talk of doing the plus someday as a separate module.

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The harrier was never a particularly good AA fighter being subsonic and draggy. It was pressed into that role at sea because it was the only aircraft that could be operated from "little" carriers. the II+ version with AAMRAMs wouldn't be too bad though.

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I think it is a great, if not fantastic air-air platform, when used to its strengths. While it is not supersonic, it can climb very fast when lightweight. It has a thoroughbred engine , albeit one for low and med altitudes. It was meant to be a strike fighter , capable of operating without airfields, and providing air-air as secondary mission. Majority of air-air combat takes place at sub-sonic speeds at at low to med altitudes. Often, a radar is not required. It depends on skills of pilot.

 

Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.

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Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.

 

The Sea Harrier FRS.1 was pretty much brand new at the time of the Falklands Conflict rather than old. The FRS.1 had the Blue Fox radar so they had onboard BVR (just about) sensors.

 

The Argentinians did not lose any Etendards in the conflict but Pucara, Mirage III and C-130 can be added to the the Sea Harrier kills.

 

I guess its arguable why the Harrier pilots were so dominant in 1982. I don't think the Harrier is intrinsically a great dogfighter. It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.

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It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.

Pretty much this. The British outclassed the Argentinians due to just being better prepared.

 

The Harrier's A/A ability was definitely better than anyone expected, but it was little more than a stopgap.

 

 

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The Sea Harrier FRS.1 was pretty much brand new at the time of the Falklands Conflict rather than old. The FRS.1 had the Blue Fox radar so they had onboard BVR (just about) sensors.

 

The Argentinians did not lose any Etendards in the conflict but Pucara, Mirage III and C-130 can be added to the the Sea Harrier kills.

 

I guess its arguable why the Harrier pilots were so dominant in 1982. I don't think the Harrier is intrinsically a great dogfighter. It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.

 

yea baiscally this.

 

 

French Mirages didn't have much air time and they had dated rear aspect heat seakers. and as someoen pointed out they were only pushed into the role because it was the only

 

 

 

Although one cannot deny the Av8b+ with amramms would be nice to have feature for self escort . Or even without looking at any pure aerial advantage,s simply for using its radar for A/G mapping is nice for its primary mission as a Strike A/C


Edited by Kev2go

 

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I think it is a great, if not fantastic air-air platform, when used to its strengths. While it is not supersonic, it can climb very fast when lightweight. It has a thoroughbred engine , albeit one for low and med altitudes. It was meant to be a strike fighter , capable of operating without airfields, and providing air-air as secondary mission. Majority of air-air combat takes place at sub-sonic speeds at at low to med altitudes. Often, a radar is not required. It depends on skills of pilot.

 

Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.

 

sea harriers are not av8b harriers. their performance is much worse ( loaded down with new avionics despite newer engines) , and they are in design and purpose only really meant as strike aircraft so they can be operated without airfields or from helicopter harriers or in USMC case "amphibious assault ships".

 

 

the heatseakers are self defense weapons like in the A10. the Av8b harrier + whilst it does have a multimode radar Amram capability its even heavier than the N/A, its not ideally suited as Air superiority. think of it as being better able to self protect/ self escort than being able to turn into an Air superiority fighter. Still no SA page, no aim9x or JHMCS

 

the only reason those were added is because there were suprlus of AN/APG 65 radars available when the Hornets upgraded to the AN/APG73, and foreign buyers of the harrier were interested in having a radar equipped av8b


Edited by Kev2go

 

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The Sea Harriers, like all first generation Harrier models, have better performance because they have a different wing, better suited for high speeds. When they developed the Harrier II, like our AV-8B NA, the wing was redesigned for higher payloads and better handling.

 

The best fighter version is the Sea Harrier FA2, with the old wing, Blue Vixen radar, later developed into Typhoon's CAPTOR, AMRAAM and Sea eagle anti ship missiles. That's the version I would like to see most. It only has a limited ground attack capability, thus the FA2 would round off our Harrier well.

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  • 3 weeks later...
The Sea Harriers, like all first generation Harrier models, have better performance because they have a different wing, better suited for high speeds. When they developed the Harrier II, like our AV-8B NA, the wing was redesigned for higher payloads and better handling.

 

The best fighter version is the Sea Harrier FA2, with the old wing, Blue Vixen radar, later developed into Typhoon's CAPTOR, AMRAAM and Sea eagle anti ship missiles. That's the version I would like to see most. It only has a limited ground attack capability, thus the FA2 would round off our Harrier well.

 

I want a FA2 so badly however I think its more likely we will see an FRS1. I would settle for a + and just make an FA2 skin for it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
the Av8b harrier + whilst it does have a multimode radar Amram capability its even heavier than the N/A, its not ideally suited as Air superiority. think of it as being better able to self protect/ self escort than being able to turn into an Air superiority fighter.

 

The AV-8B+ is a normal 4th generation fighter, designed to perform the fighter tasks from remote and off-bases, where the other fighters can't.

 

Just like the Harrier from the start, not designed to perform tasks that dedicated attack or CAS aircrafts were doing, but again operate from bases that are constantly moved.

 

Air superiority fighters are obsolete once their airfields and roadbases are gone, when you can't land and take-off, your performance is limited. And in WW3 situation those are gone in first days.

 

Still no SA page, no aim9x or JHMCS

 

Whine those are very useful, they are not requirements. Already AV-8B pilots have performed better in VWR combat "just with" AIM-9M against new F/A-18C hornets pilots as AV-8B can turn better. Sure the AIM-9X is useful to get missile off-boresight more than AIM-9M and JHMCS allows Hornet pilot attack to Harrier, but still it is not 1 vs 1 situation and it is not like one can fly there forever with full fuel etc.

 

The SA page while is nice, is not so much required over radio communications from other sources. But it makes it much easier for the pilot to do own tactical decisions, but still they can be making mistakes as the SA is not perfect by information accuracy.

 

And if the pilot is too dependant to electronic communications, their skills can be very limited to perform operations in EW environments where you do not get any datalinks, you don't have communications etc. Why all that you have is the information you stored to computer or you have written.

 

And that is something what we do not yet have in DCS at all, a electronic warfare where datalinks are jammed and made inoperable.

 

So we all should agree that AV-8B is not performing like a dedicated CAS or strike aircraft, it is not performing as a best air superiority fighter. But it does many things well even in normal operations, but it really starts to shine only when the war advances further and further to operations where your air superiority fighters and strike fighters are operating over 500-600km distances and far from the pouches and ground forces that needs the protection and extra hand to destroy the enemy.

 

So when your strike group is 2x AV-8B N/A and 3x AV-8B+, you can perform a better results than a couple air superiority fighters from long range airbase and couple strike fighters from another airbase far away.

 

Neither ones are replacing either ones, they are just a different tools for different tasks.

 

Having a fighter that can operate inside a air defence network close to the enemy border, without any roadbases or airfields or carriers is huge benefit.

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Having a fighter that can operate inside a air defence network close to the enemy border, without any roadbases or airfields or carriers is huge benefit.

 

This.

 

That's one thing DCS doesn't do well, simulate an environment with missing logistics.

 

I had a pretty long conversation with a few guys about the Hornet vs Viper that follows along the same train of thought as the above post. Some are saying they don't understand the Viper vs Hornet, they do they same thing. Which I'd more or less agree with in principle. But the thing about the Hornet is it can do the same things the Viper can do in places the Viper can't. And that, in my opinion is it's main advantage, the carrier and her strike group. Allowing that hornet to operate from just about anywhere in the world within a few hours really.

 

But that will never really be a benefit in DCS as the maps will always have a airfield Vipers can operate out of within a reasonable distance.

 

Kind of the same thing for the Harrier II+ but a little more extreme. Take away the carriers and airfields and you are left with roads to operate off of, and even then you have to move frequently. That's the benefit of airframes like the harrier and viggen. But we just don't really see that in DCS. Now, if there was an option to place a FARP where you don't need to be in contact with it to rearm and refuel, well those aircraft have a lot more power. Just imagine if in the huey or Mi-8 you could load a unit that allowed the Harrier or Viggen to land on a road, get within say 100 yards and rearm and refuel, then get back into the air. Then that helo takes off, heads to another spot and they can keep doing that. Now the harrier doesn't needs it's fuel tanks and can just keep hitting targets and coming back and going out again. That's the idea behind the Harrier. But we don't have that, so it's a jet with shorter legs, less hardpoints, and less maneuverability.

 

You can build missions for it to exploit the usefulness, but it's a biut hard not being able to get fuel or weapons and being stuck to the ship or airfields.

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Realistic scenario design is something that can be done in DCS, but usually isnt. Mainly because its hard... i always personally LOL anytime i see a scenario with carrier group that isnt russian in the black sea.

 

And the Harriers main selling point was that it could be operated from FARPS, and it actually was a few times. Unlike most other planes with highway landing capability.


Edited by Harlikwin

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Realistic scenario design is something that can be done in DCS, but usually isnt.

 

Tell you what, you build me a mission in which you can rearm or refuel a harrier which landed on a road.

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You drop a farp near a road ;)

 

**Its ED's fault**


Edited by Harlikwin

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You can use the Marston mod by Suntsag to refuel and rearm anywhere on the map. Roads included.

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