Save feature for SP missions is essential

I saw a post about this on Hoggit recently and I totally agree, and tbh I think it should be a higher priority than some of the other highly requested core feature improvements. The person that raised the issue mentioned the fact that they don't have very much time to play games and this would greatly help with that, would also let them play longer missions that aren't a possibility for people that only get to fly an hour per night. That's a valid point, but I have another reason and this one is definitely in ED's best interest from a content creation perspective.

I'm getting in to mission building. At the moment just for me and my friends to fly, but I plan to start sharing them here soon, and I hope to make some campaigns down the line. The best way to improve using the mission editor imo, and I'm sure many others would agree with this, is to play other people's missions and campaigns and then look under the hood in the editor after and see how they got certain things to work. So that's what I've been doing lately (or attempting to), binging through campaigns, for enjoyment but also as a ME learning experience. Unfortunately this is taking way longer than I thought it would, because everytime I die, fail, or run in to some other issue, its back to cold and dark with another 20 minute fly out. Not only is that 30 minutes down the drain, but when I run in to the harder points of a campaign that ends up taking several attempts, that usually just kills the whole session for me. Its not that I don't appreciate the challenge, quite the opposite, but its easy to get burned out going through the motions for 30 minutes just to get to the challenge. I would much rather play a mission so difficult it took 10 attempts and be able to load right before the action starts, than play a mission 3 times starting from the very beginning. I think that making the single player side of the game a bit more accessible would help crank out more top notch mission makers.

I also feel that the lack of a save feature artificially constrains mission building, particularly for DLC campaigns. I'm almost positive there have been times where a creator wanted to make a mission (or the whole campaign) more challenging, or incorporate more randomness, but decided against it due to there not being a save system. It seems perfectly logical, making missions that would try even the most seasoned DCS veterans would likely lead to the campaign getting more negative reviews; not because people don't like a challenge, but there isn't very much fulfillment constantly replaying the easiest part of the mission and listening to same dialog over and over.

Some people might say "git gud and its not a problem." I agree! And the best way to do that is by spending more time in the actual combat portion of Digital Combat Simulator. I'm sure someone is going to say they enjoy the punishing aspect of starting over from the beginning. That's fine, I've really enjoyed playing ironman mode in other games that are more engaging from start to finish, so I understand the appeal of playing with high stakes. For those people, just don't save it. My enjoyment from playing Xcom or Paradox games on ironman isn't degraded at all by the fact that others don't have to play that way, everyone wins.

Lastly to ED, if this is something that could be implemented relatively quickly, I couldn't think of a better time to do it. Supercarrier is just days away, and Raven One is going to be following soon after. DCS has blown up over the past year or so, and this is going to be the first DLC campaign for a full fidelity modern fighter module, plus its been promoted often by Fighter Pilot Podcast. This has got to be the most highly anticipated retail campaign so far by a mile, and I imagine it will probably be the first campaign for a lot of folks. So if at all possible, PLEASE let us experience this with saves. I know Baltic Dragon and the others put a lot of hard work in to it, and I'm sure its going to be amazing so I'm probably not even going to think about saving on my first go through a mission. But if there's some tough parts that are going to take 3 or more tries, it would really be a shame if people had to put it on hold for a while because they got burned out on repetitiveness.

+1000

I agree more campaigns should have that option. However Baltic Dragon already said that the upcoming F-18 campaign will have it.

+infinity.

I would purchase a lot more single player campaigns if this were a thing!

Yes, +1

Back in the days when dcs replay function was working very well, I could fast forward my flown mission to the point where I begin the attack, take over the aircraft especially flying A-10C missions against some stubborn and mean Sam sites where I was constantly shutdown.

Replay is so bugged now this is not a viable option.

So yes for intermittent save along the mission( battlefield and call of duty single players mission style)

Couldn't agree more! And it doesn't even have to include combat...

I once flew a 2.5 hour Mi-8 mission in the Oilfield campaign, making 4 separate sling-loads with return trips between each, before returning to base. Fuel was very tight as I'd been a bit slow hooking up the loads ...

... I ran out of fuel on short final, but managed to make the runway and rolled onto the grass. As the speed reached 1-2 knots the helicopter suddenly rolled over and blew up! I never figured out why. Some minor physics glitch, controller spike? I'll never know. :cry:

Going from sheer jubilation of surviving the lack of fuel to utter dismay at the prospect of having to replay what should have been a successful mission was not pleasant. It was a LONG time before I put myself through that mission again and continued the excellent campaign.

I have limited time and struggle to fit in a single mission on the average evening. A save feature would be incredible, no doubt about it!

The replay feature drops out of sync about 1 minute into a quick dogfight for me; it's borderline useless now.

Couldn't agree more! And it doesn't even have to include combat...

 

 

 

I once flew a 2.5 hour Mi-8 mission in the Oilfield campaign, making 4 separate sling-loads with return trips between each, before returning to base. Fuel was very tight as I'd been a bit slow hooking up the loads ...

 

 

... I ran out of fuel on short final, but managed to make the runway and rolled onto the grass. As the speed reached 1-2 knots the helicopter suddenly rolled over and blew up! I never figured out why. Some minor physics glitch, controller spike? I'll never know. :cry:

 

 

 

Going from sheer jubilation of surviving the lack of fuel to utter dismay at the prospect of having to replay what should have been a successful mission was not pleasant. It was a LONG time before I put myself through that mission again and continued the excellent campaign.

 

 

I have limited time and struggle to fit in a single mission on the average evening. A save feature would be incredible, no doubt about it!

 

 

The replay feature drops out of sync about 1 minute into a quick dogfight for me; it's borderline useless now.

I was kinda on board with the save feature till I read this comment. And yes, I know the pain of this mission, I did 3 of the slingloads & went home when I saw my fuel level. Save is nice for a long mission so you can work on it in bites depending on the time permitting, but pausing while away does just as well. But saving to bypass the effects of a critical mistake? No, I think dcs is fine without a save feature

I was kinda on board with the save feature till I read this comment. And yes, I know the pain of this mission, I did 3 of the slingloads & went home when I saw my fuel level. Save is nice for a long mission so you can work on it in bites depending on the time permitting, but pausing while away does just as well. But saving to bypass the effects of a critical mistake? No, I think dcs is fine without a save feature

Then it would be your choice not to use it. Those of us who don’t find repeating hours of missions to get back to the point where our mission went wrong will use it, and we will all be happy :)

Then it would be your choice not to use it. Those of us who don’t find repeating hours of missions to get back to the point where our mission went wrong will use it, and we will all be happy :)

I am of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't use it. What you use or don't use or your sim won't affect my enjoyment of my sim. I'm offering a dissenting voice that it's not that necessary of a feature (if we only have voice to agreements and not disagreements, it would certainly does the perception of just about any topic on this board.)

I understand the blow to morale when you fail on an extended mission. But if say, you fly a load..save, go pick up another load, save...pick up another.... Then you've changed the dynamic of the task. If you remove the ability to fail on the basis of your performance, you also remove the accomplishment to succeed on your own merit. If that accomplishment is unimportant to you, by all means, save all you want. You remove a certain degree of suspense or stress because you're no longer invested in it for a whole mission , but only for a segment. There's nothing really on the line, cuz there's nothing to lose. The stakes become very low if all you have to lose is a few minutes of flying.

I didn't understand that at first when I began with dcs. I began with unlimited fuel, as I was focused on mastering other basic competencies. When I first turned the unlimited fuel off, however, for the first time I was on the edge of my seat& my flying took on a new character...in the ka-50, hearing constant "watch ekran" alerts, seeing my plumeting fuel level and wondering if I'd make it, if I'd have to autorotate in, or if I'd end up a smoldering smudge on the countryside...

Same can be said for a carrier mission, fly the mission and save just before landing, so if you don't make it, you only lose the last few minutes... knowing you have nothing to lose reduces the pressure to do well, and therefore reduces the relief when you get it right

Do what makes you happy. If they put the feature in, use it I suppose. Maybe you really don't mind the intangibles you lose in the process. But I'm happy with the way things are, and wouldn't call a save feature necessary. From my point of view, I'm glad it's not there

I saw a post about this on Hoggit recently and I totally agree, and tbh I think it should be a higher priority than some of the other highly requested core feature improvements. The person that raised the issue mentioned the fact that they don't have very much time to play games and this would greatly help with that, would also let them play longer missions that aren't a possibility for people that only get to fly an hour per night. That's a valid point, but I have another reason and this one is definitely in ED's best interest from a content creation perspective.

This is more work for a mission builder, but you could make a save spot.

End mission here. When you return you play a shortened mission from that position - Version 1.1. Not seen anyone do that? Is more work tho.

I'm getting in to mission building. At the moment just for me and my friends to fly, but I plan to start sharing them here soon, and I hope to make some campaigns down the line. The best way to improve using the mission editor imo, and I'm sure many others would agree with this, is to play other people's missions and campaigns and then look under the hood in the editor after and see how they got certain things to work. So that's what I've been doing lately (or attempting to), binging through campaigns, for enjoyment but also as a ME learning experience. Unfortunately this is taking way longer than I thought it would, because everytime I die, fail, or run in to some other issue, its back to cold and dark with another 20 minute fly out. Not only is that 30 minutes down the drain, but when I run in to the harder points of a campaign that ends up taking several attempts, that usually just kills the whole session for me.

Don't build missions this way. Build the first position and test that one spot.

I drag myself around starting near the triggers, then play just that one little part.

Drag chopper, aircraft to next section / way point save (Version 1.5) and play that part etc etc.

You then play it right through when each segment is good. Not full start up, that's some real dedication right there.

Its not that I don't appreciate the challenge, quite the opposite, but its easy to get burned out going through the motions for 30 minutes just to get to the challenge. I would much rather play a mission so difficult it took 10 attempts and be able to load right before the action starts, than play a mission 3 times starting from the very beginning. I think that making the single player side of the game a bit more accessible would help crank out more top notch mission makers.

That's a perfect example if your going to make it "real hard". I would have a save spot for the user. You just start them from mission 1 part 2, 3 save point etc.

Just move the aircraft to that spot (Air start etc). Just make sure this still works with your early triggers from then on etc. Force the earlier triggers in mission one to true. On mission start Flag 1 true, 2, 3 and 4 etc. Then move player and re save it as mission 1 part 2 etc.

This is also a good example of why it's hard to save the mission mid way. You would need to make sure that the triggers are in a "finished state" or how you create the mission needs you to add save spot and all conditions end and are saved etc.

This is one of the most needed features ever. I gave up playing campaigns because of the lack of save feature. I play a mission for more than an hour, at some point something goes wrong and do the same thing again than again. And sometimes this happens not because of me, but because of stupid AI or non-working mission trigger, pc hangs up, etc

I am of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't use it. What you use or don't use or your sim won't affect my enjoyment of my sim. I'm offering a dissenting voice that it's not that necessary of a feature (if we only have voice to agreements and not disagreements, it would certainly does the perception of just about any topic on this board.)

I understand the blow to morale when you fail on an extended mission. But if say, you fly a load..save, go pick up another load, save...pick up another.... Then you've changed the dynamic of the task. If you remove the ability to fail on the basis of your performance, you also remove the accomplishment to succeed on your own merit. If that accomplishment is unimportant to you, by all means, save all you want. You remove a certain degree of suspense or stress because you're no longer invested in it for a whole mission , but only for a segment. There's nothing really on the line, cuz there's nothing to lose. The stakes become very low if all you have to lose is a few minutes of flying.

 

I didn't understand that at first when I began with dcs. I began with unlimited fuel, as I was focused on mastering other basic competencies. When I first turned the unlimited fuel off, however, for the first time I was on the edge of my seat& my flying took on a new character...in the ka-50, hearing constant "watch ekran" alerts, seeing my plumeting fuel level and wondering if I'd make it, if I'd have to autorotate in, or if I'd end up a smoldering smudge on the countryside...

 

Same can be said for a carrier mission, fly the mission and save just before landing, so if you don't make it, you only lose the last few minutes... knowing you have nothing to lose reduces the pressure to do well, and therefore reduces the relief when you get it right

 

Do what makes you happy. If they put the feature in, use it I suppose. Maybe you really don't mind the intangibles you lose in the process. But I'm happy with the way things are, and wouldn't call a save feature necessary. From my point of view, I'm glad it's not there

Fair points, and well articulated.

I would agree if campaigns did not require one to complete the entire mission before moving on to the next. Things go wrong in real life too, people don’t complete their missions for a variety of reasons. Life, and the war, still go on. No one achieves the perfect record that is necessary to complete some of these difficult campaigns.

The dynamic campaign should be great for this, if you aren’t successful then the war goes on and you go back out tomorrow (perhaps pretending you be a different pilot, depending on what happened. But it is still a game, after all!)

With the current scripted and story driven missions (which are still excellent, BtW), the suspense or stress you refer to is, however, gone the second or third time you fly the mission, doing the same things and knowing the exact location of all the triggers and enemy actions. You go through the motions again, listening to the same voice-overs and knowing exactly what is going to happen, just to get back to the point where you left off, just to kill that one infantry soldier you missed when you went winchester and couldn’t kill to trigger the next event because your wingman crashed into a hill.

So you go through the entire mission again, hit all the triggers and play the script just to get that one guy.

Or maybe a manpad got you. Well now the suspense up to that point in the mission is gone again, you fly the exact same script again to get back to that point, knowing exactly what’s going to happen and going through the motions.

If you could save, you’d say darn, screwed the pooch on that one, learn from your mistake (if you made one, lots of times it’s just down to luck), and jump right back into the suspense where you left off.

Different play styles I guess? :pilotfly:

I was kinda on board with the save feature till I read this comment. And yes, I know the pain of this mission, I did 3 of the slingloads & went home when I saw my fuel level. Save is nice for a long mission so you can work on it in bites depending on the time permitting, but pausing while away does just as well. But saving to bypass the effects of a critical mistake? No, I think dcs is fine without a save feature

Seems I started quite a debate!

I am quite a purist, and I sometimes make my entertainment/gaming/simming time 'hard work' even to the point it can cease to be fun and becomes more like a job or chore! So I totally understand your point. I almost agree, but I think there is room for a little 'give' with DCS to help players in different life situations.

As simulators have become more realistic, the ability to emulate real life in extreme detail improves, but at some point I begin to question what I'm actually playing these sims for. For [serious] fun, yes. To learn how these machines are operated in real life, yes. To pretend I'm a fighter/attack/civil pilot, which I never got to realise in real life, yes. To gain a sense of achievement for a 'job well done' when all the effort pays off, yes. But I have to keep myself in check to avoid killing all the pleasure sometimes. I don't go into depths with flight planning outside the sim, but I do try to understand my aircraft and operate it realistically. No hot starts, no auto-starts. No quitting after a "mission success" message without landing and parking properly (I wish campaign creators wouldn't allow that). No aids/labels/padlock whatsoever.

I would never use a save feature as a 'cheat' to cover my own shortcomings or mistakes, unless I had reached such frustration from replaying the same mission and dealing with the same dialog/glitches/impossible odds that I would cease playing altogether. It's a sim; it's make-believe. We all have different thresholds for patience and perseverance.

With the Mi-8 example, I kept an eye on the fuel but got caught out. I did all I could to minimise my usage on the way back - I knew a LOT was at stake to fail this mission. Talk about feeling nervous! I was proud to have not crashed an Mi-8 in two campaigns and did not intend to start that day! And I JUST made it back by the skin of my teeth. I survived. Didn't even break the helicopter. I felt accomplishment AND relief at the near-disaster I had just avoided. But then some weird game glitch screwed me over and ruined my entire effort. That was not directly my fault. In this case I would have gladly used a save to avoid replaying the entire mission. I had achieved my goal, but the game denied me. (Yes, I was partly responsible for getting into a situation where the game did something weird, but in reality it would never have happened - I was down and safe.)

I've been gaming for years and I despise the constant auto-saving of modern games, meaning you never have to replay more than the last 10 seconds. Games have become so much 'easier' in the last 15 years, with too many aids, hints and in-game tutorials. I prefer the old school games that gave next to no hints and had no saves or limited saves. (But I also see that making games more approachable and less frustrating has opened them up to a wider audience.)

Back to DCS, perhaps allowing a single save per mission could be a compromise, or one save per 30 or 60 mins. But some might like to save it every few minutes. It's their sim; let them fly it how they want. I don't judge people who use auto-start, nor fly the arcade modes (well maybe I do but I do it in secret :D). I can't judge those with busy lives who want to maximise their fun and minimise frustration.

It should be up to the player to determine how 'hardcore' they want their experience to be. It's their time and their sandbox to play in.

With DCS, the issues with the campaign missions can be many and varied, as mentioned above. Failed triggers, crazy AI, you name it. Often not the fault of the player. It really spoils the whole experience.

I've had to give up on the A-10C BFT campaign due to a broken trigger. I can't get past one mission. It's infuriating to fly for 20 minutes to hit the same brick wall over and over. I could try going higher/lower or faster/slower to somehow fluke my way past the trigger, but I don't have the patience to keep re-flying it up to that point.

To be dead set against a save system, perhaps it's also worth campaigning to have the labels removed from the game, or the unlimited fuel/weapons options removed. Using those is no worse than using a save system, surely? How about 'dead is dead' for campaigns, like an iron man mode? I love the concept, but I'm not sure I am prepared to go that hardcore!

We can all agree to disagree. I'm not here to challenge anybody personally. I only want to have a friendly debate about the pros and cons, and share some ideas and anecdotes. :)

Alas, I think my cup runneth over :D Thanks for reading.

+1

Very much needed feature.

Also, don't tell other people how they MUST play their own single player game. Just have check box for people who don't want to be able to re-load a save in order to try a different tactic or recover from a fatal error.

+1

Very much needed feature.

 

 

Also, don't tell other people how they MUST play their own single player game. Just have check box for people who don't want to be able to re-load a save in order to try a different tactic or recover from a fatal error.

If you're referring to my statements perhaps you should read the elaboration I did in my second post

If I could I add one feature, it would be a save game function. No contest.

Seems I started quite a debate!

you did, and thank you

I would never use a save feature as a 'cheat' to cover my own shortcomings or mistakes, unless I had reached such frustration from replaying the same mission and dealing with the same dialog/glitches/impossible odds that I would cease playing altogether. It's a sim; it's make-believe. We all have different thresholds for patience and perseverance.

 

With the Mi-8 example, I kept an eye on the fuel but got caught out. I did all I could to minimise my usage on the way back - I knew a LOT was at stake to fail this mission. Talk about feeling nervous! I was proud to have not crashed an Mi-8 in two campaigns and did not intend to start that day! And I JUST made it back by the skin of my teeth. I survived. Didn't even break the helicopter. I felt accomplishment AND relief at the near-disaster I had just avoided. But then some weird game glitch screwed me over and ruined my entire effort. That was not directly my fault. In this case I would have gladly used a save to avoid replaying the entire mission. I had achieved my goal, but the game denied me. (Yes, I was partly responsible for getting into a situation where the game did something weird, but in reality it would never have happened - I was down and safe.)

 

 

With DCS, the issues with the campaign missions can be many and varied, as mentioned above. Failed triggers, crazy AI, you name it. Often not the fault of the player. It really spoils the whole experience.

I've had to give up on the A-10C BFT campaign due to a broken trigger. I can't get past one mission. It's infuriating to fly for 20 minutes to hit the same brick wall over and over. I could try going higher/lower or faster/slower to somehow fluke my way past the trigger, but I don't have the patience to keep re-flying it up to that point.

I rearranged your post because these all have the same response: in these, I believe youd be justified in editing your logbook lua file. In one, you legitimately completed the mission of your own merit

in the other examples, you put in a good faith effort, yet there were issues outside of your abilities as a sim-pilot for you to continue. If a bug existed in DCS (ive never heard of such a unicorn), that shouldnt prevent you from using content you paid for.

in the end, what we do, we do for our enjoyment. If issues are preventing you from enjoying things and youve done what you can...then more on.

I've been gaming for years and I despise the constant auto-saving of modern games, meaning you never have to replay more than the last 10 seconds. Games have become so much 'easier' in the last 15 years, with too many aids, hints and in-game tutorials. I prefer the old school games that gave next to no hints and had no saves or limited saves. (But I also see that making games more approachable and less frustrating has opened them up to a wider audience.)

you and i are in the same boat, and yes i am conscious of what the DCS experience is for newcomers. It does at the same time need to be approachable for new pilots without ameliorating the experience for those with a higher degree of proficiency (hence, MAC!)

It should be up to the player to determine how 'hardcore' they want their experience to be. It's their time and their sandbox to play in.

I certainly dont disagree

To be dead set against a save system, perhaps it's also worth campaigning to have the labels removed from the game, or the unlimited fuel/weapons options removed. Using those is no worse than using a save system, surely? How about 'dead is dead' for campaigns, like an iron man mode? I love the concept, but I'm not sure I am prepared to go that hardcore!

This is true, and while it may be to some degree cognitive dissonance, I am for the inclusion of those unlimiteds. DCS has an incredibly steep learning curve, and they can be useful as a sort of "training wheels", and there is a certain degree of accomplishment once you uncheck those boxes, along with the uncertainty of a new found vulnerability. Does a save feature do the same? perhaps. I dont see it as an essential feature, but like i mentioned, if it were included in DCS i would simply continue going about my sim, while you do what you wish with yours.

As for labels, im of mixed feelings. i like a simple dot, the smaller, the better. Too much information makes the screen a mess. I do wish the dots would disappear when obscured from line of sight by terrain or parts of my own aircraft. in some airframes, its that way. in others the mod i used doesnt work. Is that cheating? in some peoples book, perhaps, however there are a lot of visual cues that exist for RL pilots that dont exist in DCS- glint off windshields, people and vehicles moving at realistic speeds, plumes of dust kicked up behind vehicles. The clarity of even distant detail by the human eye outstrips what DCS shows on even the best monitor, and most certainly my first generation vive (non-pro). If you feel thats a double standard, ill accept that.

We can all agree to disagree. I'm not here to challenge anybody personally. I only want to have a friendly debate about the pros and cons, and share some ideas and anecdotes. :)

 

Alas, I think my cup runneth over :D Thanks for reading.

by all means, let it runneth! The whole intent of my counterpoint was to discuss the underlying considerations, not to say "stoopid noodz, get gud, lulz! -1"

Don't build missions this way. Build the first position and test that one spot.

 

I drag myself around starting near the triggers, then play just that one little part.

Drag chopper, aircraft to next section / way point save (Version 1.5) and play that part etc etc.

 

You then play it right through when each segment is good. Not full start up, that's some real dedication right there.

That's typically how I do it. I'm talking about playing through campaigns made by other people so I can learn some things from them.

I would never use a save feature as a 'cheat' to cover my own shortcomings or mistakes, unless I had reached such frustration from replaying the same mission and dealing with the same dialog/glitches/impossible odds that I would cease playing altogether. It's a sim; it's make-believe. We all have different thresholds for patience and perseverance.

Yeah I'm not looking to constantly save so I can always revert to the last 5 minutes, but restarting from the very beginning gets old fast. I just failed the mission I'm currently on 70 minutes in, 25 of those minutes were starting up and getting to the AO. I'm not going to get any satisfaction from repeating the flyout, its a chore that must be completed before I can actually play again as far I'm concerned. Yeah I understand that's part of what makes it a sim and generally I don't mind the flying from point A to B, but at this point I'm halfway through the campaign and already had 10 or so restarts...my last mission for example I had to repeat after I completed it because the mission success trigger didn't fire for some reason. I've had my fill of start ups and navigating for the time being and now I'm more interested in blowing stuff up and seeing the story progress.

Saving (and more importantly, restoring) a game state is an unrealistic request for constantly evolving software. The simulator is not a tool working on some data with a well-defined structure. The simulation *IS* data, and its structure follows the changes in the code.

Sorry, but this is not gonna happen in a reasonable timeframe.

Thanks for acknowledging the request (it’s the first time I’ve seen an ED staffer ack the many threads requesting this), even if I have no idea what it means! (Other than we aren’t going to get the feature :()

Saving (and more importantly, restoring) a game state is an unrealistic request for constantly evolving software. The simulator is not a tool working on some data with a well-defined structure. The simulation *IS* data, and its structure follows the changes in the code.

Sorry, but this is not gonna happen in a reasonable timeframe.

yeah we know that. every update breaks campaings.

If it is not gonna happen, how are you going to make a dynamic campaign? I think it also depends on saving

I +1 this as well.

Although I am a HUGE stickler to getting it right from wheels up to touchdown (including startup)... I would love the ability to go back if I screwed up.

My missions can go on for 2 hours, and sometimes I do not get a chance to work on the part of the mission I would like to becuase something goes wrong 1+ hours in flight.

Having the option to save would really be a training tool I could use.

I rearranged your post because these all have the same response: in these, I believe youd be justified in editing your logbook lua file. In one, you legitimately completed the mission of your own merit

Thanks for the editing. It was a slightly jumbled up post. I should have been asleep when I wrote it, but the topic was too enticing to discuss!

in the other examples, you put in a good faith effort, yet there were issues outside of your abilities as a sim-pilot for you to continue. If a bug existed in DCS (ive never heard of such a unicorn), that shouldnt prevent you from using content you paid for.

in the end, what we do, we do for our enjoyment. If issues are preventing you from enjoying things and youve done what you can...then more on.

Fair point about logbook editing, I didn't really think of that!

I came across my Mi-8 campaign screenshots earlier. Seems I recounted it slightly incorrectly. Not that it matters, but I feel the need to correct my account. I landed and rolled onto the grass, no problem. But I needed to reach the parking area to complete the mission. I was able to refuel, and later tried to restart my engines. At this point the incident happened. Whether I'd left the collective up from the desperate approach or something else happened, I'm not sure. But in reality I'd have left it to the ground crew to tow back to parking :smilewink:

This is true, and while it may be to some degree cognitive dissonance, I am for the inclusion of those unlimiteds. DCS has an incredibly steep learning curve, and they can be useful as a sort of "training wheels", and there is a certain degree of accomplishment once you uncheck those boxes, along with the uncertainty of a new found vulnerability.

Yes, if you approach DCS as a simulator and training software, the unlimited/invulnerable options are ideal. I always approach simulators with a view to getting as immersed as possible, so I shy away from artificial aids as much as possible. I think I should be more flexible and use them to skill up.

Does a save feature do the same? perhaps. I dont see it as an essential feature, but like i mentioned, if it were included in DCS i would simply continue going about my sim, while you do what you wish with yours.

As for labels, im of mixed feelings. i like a simple dot, the smaller, the better. Too much information makes the screen a mess. I do wish the dots would disappear when obscured from line of sight by terrain or parts of my own aircraft. in some airframes, its that way. in others the mod i used doesnt work. Is that cheating? in some peoples book, perhaps, however there are a lot of visual cues that exist for RL pilots that dont exist in DCS- glint off windshields, people and vehicles moving at realistic speeds, plumes of dust kicked up behind vehicles. The clarity of even distant detail by the human eye outstrips what DCS shows on even the best monitor, and most certainly my first generation vive (non-pro). If you feel thats a double standard, ill accept that.

For my many hours logged on DCS, I've done very little air combat so don't use labels or dots, but I do think that's a wise option given the superior eyesight of the AI. I should look into it!

I've just started 'The Georgian War' (F-15C campaign), as I read it was a good introductory campaign that doesn't throw you in the deep end. Good to get some combat practise in before I concentrate on learning the depths of the F/A-18C. Needless to say, 30 mins into one of the early missions I was blown out of the sky. So I have to 'look forward' to flying that all over again soon. I guess I should eschew immersion for a bit, enable labels, unlimited ammo and invulnerability, then go up against waves of fighters to learn at a faster rate, treating the sim as a sim, rather than trying to approach it like it was reality. I know all the theory, just need to get quicker at operating the radar and making decisions about my actions. Simple practise!

by all means, let it runneth! The whole intent of my counterpoint was to discuss the underlying considerations, not to say "stoopid noodz, get gud, lulz! -1"

Thanks for the well-mannered debate! Some people should push themselves to 'get gud' for the enhanced satisfaction that it brings, and I dare say that those who stick around with DCS are likely to be such people to try.

I have colleagues who think DCS looks amazing but they won't try it due to the known time investment or expected complexity. Even the FC3 aircraft require some learning compared to other games.

Now, to c0ff's earlier response:

Thanks for the feedback. I totally understand that it was an unlikely feature to be realised for the foreseeable future, but I hope it will not be forgotten in the long run. Other sims with complex aircraft can do it. If it can be held in memory it can be written to disk (said the non-programmer).

Also, I refuse to accept a 'no' from someone with Batman for their avatar!!! :D

I'm one of the biggest supporters of saving and persistence, but not in the way that has been described and it was is being asked for. Single player saving a complete moving state with missiles in the air, is asking too much. If you don't have 60 mins to sit un disturbed, then sims are not a good choice of a hobby, they take time to master for which you also require to spend time learning. There is an available pause button for single sorties, if an hour is too much to replay and practice your take offs then it's a problem the sim cannot solve, and you need to.

On the other hand, saving the state of a very complex mission that can last days or weeks, at least in a progress sense on the map, has been done so many times. Literally even wrote my own, which took a while since I had to learn a scripting language and how DCS works underneath to do it. But it's been done enough to push it into the realms of normal nowadays.

I just don't understand a save that you were at some days ago, sitting down to do some flying and then jumping into a situation you barely remember when you press start. Just start a mission when you have the whole time to complete it, rather than expect to stop after 15 mins and think, "It would be really cool if I didnt have to do the start up again". Who wants to skip things based on some achievement criteria? Surely the important part of the whole experience is the immersion of doing the entire thing? Why would you want to jump back in, just to land, or just to skip taking off, some of the best parts about the sim.

This is nothing about being good to finish a mission and using a save state to get your criteria. I hope not anyway, because if it is, again, try something else that you can complete in ten minutes rather than an hour to ninety.