Serious question. Mirage or Harrier?

Back with reasoning, the Mirage may be argued by some that it is highly incomplete. The main reasoning goes behind to some of the systems that have bugs, and the incompletion of the radar.

 

The radar that is in the Mirage right now is still quite basic and does not work well when it comes to locking targets of different aircraft, which can play with a huge issue of actually killing them when only so much of a degree path difference loses lock. To get into more detail, we have to understand what the radar is meant for. The Mirage 2000C is the first 4th generation aircraft of its kind to be implemented a Radar Doppler Multifunction, derived of the Cyrano IV built in the Mirage F1, a more pre-build than the C, and later becoming the Radar Doppler à Impulsions, (RDI) which was primarily of air to air. Along with that, there is also a multimode of the Radar Doppler Multitarget (RDY) meant for air to ground also. These are both French acronyms, and the RDY is translated. We're going to be looking into the RDY side of the M-2000C radar, which is for air to ground.

 

We know that there is no implementation of the air to ground radar for the M-2000C, and because of 2 reasons. One may be blamed due to ED have not developed an air to ground radar, but will come out with the Hornet. I did some searching in the newsletters to find out that they had been developing an air to ground radar, even before to their recent announcement of now doing it after everything else. Either they had slow progress, or never got to it. That is not the point here. And while I do not know of the specific RDY variant that we have, it is definitely missing the lacking purpose of the M-2000C "multi-role" position. Just because it can use guided bombs even though you can't properly use them of the RDY does not make the aircraft "multi-role" furthermore. It still remains as a fighter.

 

Please apologize for my reasoning, I know that this may be a hazy line of a subject involving air to ground radar features in DCS, but it is very possible and the M-2000C shouldn't still be in early access just because of this and other key things.

So the term "early access" or "in development" is wrong.

What you mean is "it is still enhanced and getting fixes and optimization" by Razbam after release. Which is a very positive thing.

I have both as probably most people do. I haven't flown the harrier since about 3 weeks after buying it 3 months ago. I bought the 2000c about 2 weeks ago and it's the only thing I've flown since.

I'd much rather fly the harrier but until it gets all it's goodies, the 2000c is my ride. I argue that right now, the 2000c is as capable (in daylight) at AG as the Harrier, maybe better and you get a radar to boot, albeit no radar missiles, just heaters with a bombload, and superior speed. Yeah no mavericks, one downside.

My advice, if you want something to fly now and be able to do both AG and AA, then 2000c. If you are ok with just AG in day/night and don't care about really early access and missing bells and whistles then Harrier.

But, when the Harrier systems are implemented and look this good in sim, then I'll fly her again (warning turn speakers down):

(...)I argue that right now, the 2000c is as capable (in daylight) at AG as the Harrier, maybe better and you get a radar to boot, albeit no radar missiles, just heaters with a bombload, and superior speed.(...)

Hmm, last time I flew the Mirage it had Super-530Ds that where MRAAM guided by the RDI Radar... Did that change?

I have both, Harrier for me, better visibility and flexibilty, but short on range, and not A/A. The RAF used to call it 'running away bravely' if you get a sidewinder kill, well done. I would say save up for the Hornet, you get both A/A, & A/G, and consider speed. The Harrier is not supersonic, those maps are BIG, it takes a LONG time in an A-10 to get around. But you need to figure out what your favourite is, ground pounding, tank plinking etc, or A/A combat, either one is built for one, but can do the other, at a pinch, on a good day etc. Hornet was designed for both and still at reduced cost and you get to land on carriers the hard way. But of the two you asked, Harrier IMHO . Spend your hard earned cash wisely, not quickly

A part of the module promised long ago of a2g radar is still not in. Viggen has one. Even A-4E mod has one. What has taken ED and RAZBAM so long to develop one? You also got devs from Heatblur and BST who can get radar clound clutter...

I mean the early access Harrier doesn't even have a radar nor a functional moving Map, yet.

It seems you are just trolling and spread some bad mood? :dunno:

A part of the module promised long ago of a2g radar is still not in. Viggen has one. Even A-4E mod has one. What has taken ED and RAZBAM so long to develop one? You also got devs from Heatblur and BST who can get radar clound clutter...

They also said that they waited for ED technology. HB did their own, good for them.

AND pretty much the last sentence above. Do your research, half you answer was copy paste from wikipedia.

Hmm, last time I flew the Mirage it had Super-530Ds that where MRAAM guided by the RDI Radar... Did that change?

From the manual:

WEAPONS The M-2000C can load a number of different air - to - air missiles and air - to - ground munitions. However, due to limitations of the targeting computer, it is not possible to mix Super 530D missiles with air-to-ground weapons, and not possible either to mix different kinds of air-to-ground weapons. Doing so (for instance rockets and bombs, Mk-82s and Belougas etc.) may result in system not being able to handle the configuration and thus not work properly

From the manual:

(...) However, due to limitations of the targeting computer, it is not possible to MIX Super 530D missiles with air-to-GROUND weapons, and not possible either to mix different kinds of air-to-ground weapons. (...)

A typical intercept loadout contains 2*Super 530D (radar guided missiles) and 2*Magic (heat seeking short range missiles).

I'm not sure everyone gets it, but the two missing AG radar mode will bring nothing to the AG attack run :music_whistling:

As later we are getting Harrier AV-8B+ variant, that has a F/A-18C radar (just trimmed slightly smaller) and you get capability carry the AIM-120 etc, you will really have a true multi-performer with single airframe. You will be able to take-off from short strips anywhere basically, do the combat and then land vertically to reload and get back to action quickly.

Harrier climbs faster to 3 km altitude than even F-15C, and it has very powerful engine for air combat to quickly accelerate and quickly speed down, and very tight turn radius (thanks to Viffing).

If you at all want to focus for the air-to-ground, Harrier is the way to go. If you mainly want to do interception and air-to-air, it is little challenging but Mirage should get the edge for longer range, as Harrier really has "short legs" but it is faster in tasks as you land to field bases instead to airfields. The Harrier benefit is as well that you have far superior accuracy for dumb bombs than even up coming F/A-18 Hornet (or AV-8B+) with radar targeting as the ARBS bombing sight is best thing after laser guided bombing.

To understand what you are getting with the Harrier, it is good to watch this:

Not to mention the Mirage 2000C was never used in the A-G role.

Only in A-A.

It should be very interesting to have the Radar A-G mode ( specially for terrain avoidance ) but the whole drama about the radar A-G mode in a pure interceptor is beyond my knowledge.

The Harrier is not supersonic, those maps are BIG, it takes a LONG time in an A-10 to get around

In fact no, DCS maps are small (and Caucasus isn't fully used), but A-10 is slow :lol:

Typical cruise parameters for Mirage 2000C are between FL360 and FL400 at M0.9 :smilewink:

...and apart from what Jojo said, technically the Mirage 2000C was officially released about a year ago! ( 20th April 2017 source: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/de/products/planes/ )

 

So the term "early access" or "in development" is wrong.

Wow... And I have believed that Mirage is still in the beta phase, based how many is whining about the lack of features in Mirage.... Didn't know it was "released", as now I understand the whining very well then!

Not to mention the Mirage 2000C was never used in the A-G role.

 

Only in A-A.

 

It should be very interesting to have the A-G mode ( specially for terrain avoidance ) but the whole drama about the A-G mode in a pure interceptor is beyond my knowledge.

It is very nice to have a A-G capability on interceptor. But just really trucking a Mk-82 bombs for some bridge destruction or Airfield attack to destroy the strip is not really so "fun" as Harrier is capable to provide the real CAS from close. And when Harrier offers quickest turn-around rate to get reloaded and back to action, it is like best there is.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I finished up work late last night and got drunk. I let the whisky pick. It choose the M2000-C:pilotfly:

I can assure you the Harrier will be on the short list.

So far, just sitting in the pit, setting up all the buttons, I am very happy with my choice.

It is a good choice. And you made it easy for yourself by limiting it to two, instead wondering among all others :)

Not to mention the Mirage 2000C was never used in the A-G role.

 

Only in A-A.

 

It should be very interesting to have the Radar A-G mode ( specially for terrain avoidance ) but the whole drama about the radar A-G mode in a pure interceptor is beyond my knowledge.

It did some AG patrols over Bosnia with Mk-82, but not called into live action.

Some funny moments during training when they went supersonic into the dive, the AA pilots were not used to fly such heavy AG load.

Since the withdrawal of Super 530D in 2012 in France it isn't front line air defense fighter anymore, and they are working more on AG. They are paired with Mirage 2000D to hunt for terrorist in Africa. They bring 2 x 30mm guns lacking to the Mirage 2000D and a pair of GBU-12.

In DCS using the Harrier II to buddy lase for Mirage 2000C can be a lot of fun. :thumbup:

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

I finished up work late last night and got drunk. I let the whisky pick. It choose the M2000-C:pilotfly:

 

I can assure you the Harrier will be on the short list.

 

So far, just sitting in the pit, setting up all the buttons, I am very happy with my choice.

Good choice.

Some people are focusing on what is missing. And sure there is room from improvement.

But you can already do good things, realistically, how it is, especially in AA.

Here are a few tips to use it:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=205698

Once you've finished the trainings missions/ campaign you can try this campaign to apply it:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187436

:thumbup:

Very interesting Jojo.

That role you mention is perfectly doable right now with what we have modelled.

Thanks for the info.

Very interesting Jojo.

 

That role you mention is perfectly doable right now with what we have modelled.

 

Thanks for the info.

Indeed, you can already perform all the missions the Mirage 2000C is capable off.

Improvements to come will just make it easier.

Do not buy AV-8B until RAZBAM finished Mirage 2000C.

I have both and love both. They're killer modules but I find myself flying the AV8B most lately. I'm more of an air to air guy but the lack of a long range A/A missile in the Mirage makes it a challenge to stay alive in multiplayer which I do most. For A/G the Harrier does most of what it's supposed to and looks the best in VR. Oh and it hauls ass! I have the A10C as well and like what was said, you need to pack a lunch if your flying any distance because it's slow as hell.

But I wouldn't give up either. If I had to pick one to start it would be the Harrier. There's much more to master with it being VSTOL and it puts bombs where they need to go. Then again, joyriding through the mountains at Mach 1 in VR is pretty sweet as well lol.

A typical intercept loadout contains 2*Super 530D (radar guided missiles) and 2*Magic (heat seeking short range missiles).

You missed my entire point in my op, which was that the 2000c is (imho) as capable or better at AG as the harrier at this time, only that when you carry bombs you can only carry heaters for AA.

Buy F-18. I have Mirage and Harrier but I personally don't think to buy modules from RAZBAM anymore.

You missed my entire point in my op, which was that the 2000c is (imho) as capable or better at AG as the harrier at this time, only that when you carry bombs you can only carry heaters for AA.