Some interesting information from Nick Grey on a youtube comment

No, what he is saying is that ED has looked over the numbers, and they have decided that their current business model probably works better than any proposed changes. One important rule in business is that it is much easier to get sales from existing customers than it is to bring in new ones, and so you need to be careful about anything that might drive off existing customers. Bringing in new customers is important as well, of course, and usually there is no need to choose between the two.

 

 

 

So they've probably considered that many customers already own the modules that they really want. Hence frequent sales to tempt customers towards older modules that maybe don't excite them, but they might buy for $25 instead of $50 (for example, people who don't usually fly helicopters), and working on new products that longtime customers will eagerly buy like Supercarrier and the upcoming Syria map.

 

 

 

They probably have a better idea of their various business options, sales figures, customer data, etc than we do

Btw - your rule regarding sales & customers do not apply to every product.

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Replicating FS2020 features like entire world map in that level of detail with AI enhancement is simply out of reach of pretty much anyone else for the foreseeable future. I mean Google could do it, and maybe they even will for google earth, but they are not big on flightsims. I dont even see Lockheed Martin /P3D do it. (Though I am curious what they will do. License the FS2020 engine ? I probably would. And if I where Lockheed Martin, Id want to use it for my commercial/military sims too. And if you do that, wouldnt you make a declassified PC game version for it as well?)

Why it always sounds that people do not understand what the "Microsoft Flight 2020" is all about.

Microsoft is a world learning software company (yes, Apple can hold most money in the bank account, but they are not really a software company like Microsoft) and they have entered to the various markets in the last two decades.

The key technologies that Microsoft Flight Simulator is using, is from Nokia. The Nokia purchased the Navteq that started its business '85 or something when it was 2007 so they could compete Google Maps that launched just couple years earlier. It was the competition between giant software companies that saw the future of the WWW on a palm (ironically, Palm didn't make it).

When Nokia licensed their map technologies to Microsoft, they gave the keys for the Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020. When Nokia sold the "Here Technologies" for three major German (Chinese *ahem*) car manufacturer they made it possible to license all that technology to others, keeping Microsoft still in the business using all that mapping data.

What Microsoft really has done, is take their access for "Bing Maps" and build a flight simulator on it. Creating new weather engine (most parts it looks amazing, but once you see through the engine limitations, you see it is not so different from what we already have in DCS World) and all the aircraft simulation required base.

The DCS World is (IMHO) at far better situation by many ways (and in many ways not so much) because Eagle Dynamics understood that doing own engines and terrains etc has its benefits. If they could have just license a new engine etc, they would have. But when nothing on market offers what is needed technically and business vice, you make your own.

Is a Microsoft Flight 2020 threat to DCS World? No. Not at all, in my opinion. Too completely different target audiences.

This is why ED has likely never allowed any third party studio to develop a civilian aircraft to DCS World. You can bet that ED has been approached by some by some means, be it a small Cessna or some medium size private passenger jets. They likely have even contacted by a small studios to make special airports details etc. We do not know anything about that, but possibilities that nothing such would have happened are fairly slim.

The Microsoft Flight 2020 presents various "threats" to DCS World. It is about expectations from the users. Be it a lighting or a terrain or something else. But it is there. And that can not be denied. But it is nothing at all that "Now the people who want to fly military missions will go to MS Flight 2020!". Does Microsoft eventually allow military aircrafts and all to come to their simulator? We really don't know. As many will have a 2001 in their minds even today when it comes to flying in simulator. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" -argument.

Watching like the latest trailers from the Syria map, we do not see the final future product. We see that map at its current state of DCS World weather engine. We do not know how things changes when ED are starting to get their next generation weather, graphics, terrain etc engines ready they are developing currently.

It looks many ways far better than what competition already has, but it lacks the polishing. IMHO.

And by that I mean we need more "ground clutter". I have mentioned this many times in the gone years, but we need a lot of elements on ground that will generate other than "billiard table" look at the low. We have already a better trees than Microsoft Flight 2020 does have, that will mostly be a 3D boxes from satellite imagery (yes, you will see fine hand placed trees and all in important areas, but almost everything else is just the "Bing Maps") but we do not have the technology for terrain engine to render rocks, a high resolution mesh maps to make a mountain rocky face to actually be a rocky face, but a "smooth" bald shape.

What I see in the future is a potential market for ED,

A closed Community, closed circle SDK, cooperation.

Access to a map tools such a way that people could start adding objects to maps together. Placing trees, bushes and rocks. Make it a Github kind where one edits can be easily be reversed by the automatic voting system. Use a ED account login for it, if that account has purchased a two modules. This should throw away lots of abusive people, while somewhat limiting access (like require Hornet and Super Carrier with the terrain).

But I believe that we could see far more detailed maps by that way.

Use a upcoming VoIP system to talk between people in the area, have a chat room to ask help. And even somewhat add a "on map" markers where people could add symbols for specific tasks like "Add details" or "Minimize details", "Delete these" etc. This could be on the Open Beta branch, that will put all the changes through the ED finally. So ED could accept each edit.

Personally I do not care at all about "Whole world" thing. Because I DON'T WANT TO BE THERE.

I like the idea that ED has good specific map areas. If one can't create a conflict in a 500 x 300 km area, then they can't do that in a whole world.

But I would like to see some other terrains than these "empty spaces", this as opinion from helicopter flying perspective or a infantry perspective. We need a highly detailed forest areas like a Fulda Cap. A good high terrain elevation changes, a dangerous crossings etc. But all that as well requires big changes to AI, to be more like a RTS games has (yes, already under construction). And it must be based to real military command structure, real military commands, and behavior. These things were done already in the 90's with basic RTS games like a "Close Combat" series.

I have written wishlist posts about that earlier as well, but that is a HUGE MAJOR market out there, to have a GREAT RTS. Those combat areas are very very small. They can go from a one town to just few kilometers size areas. And if ED taps directly to that market, they have huge potential for virtual pilots and RTS fans to play together.

The limitation for that is still the AI, but mainly the terrain engine. Not enough details for such a combat. We do not need something like a "Mens of War" kind level, but somewhere around early oughties.

But RTS players are ready to put hour or two for a good somewhere. And if you give them larger scale, they are ready to play even more. And that is where a virtual pilot has very nice time to play together.

Can anyone see anything like that in a Microsoft Flight 2020? I don't....

I don't see it become a military simulator where troops move on the ground, attack against each others, pilots flying military aircrafts, while a some people are landing a passanger jets just near by....

No....

DCS World is safe.... It has own corner. A own sandbox. A own military interested people and it can't be touched by others just because others are offering a flying simulator.

I could post multiple framecraps from the latest official 2020 trailer, to show how DCS World is amazing in the quality and all the hard work ED and partners has done for it. But it would just upset some people that only see the lighting system in it, and much improved flight modeling from MSFX level.

ED has many challenges, one of those is that it is not going to implement technologies that are only for specific hardware, like for AMD or Nividia graphics cards. As that would be unfair. And ED doesn't want to be unfair. So we are luck out if there are some major graphics improvements that "other team" doesn't support yet.

So of course Nick Grey is informed about the possibilities, challenges etc. And he is there to as well help to see the big picture for the company that he loves.

But we need to as well help ED to know that work they have done is very valuable.

Is a Microsoft Flight 2020 threat to DCS World? No. Not at all, in my opinion. Too completely different target audiences.

I agree. Just wanted to say that this was never my opinion. I think the opposite is the case. Since FS 2020 will be available in XBox and Xbox Live there is a fair chance that this new hype about flight simulator may actually draw some customers to DCS, because they notice that flying i actally awesome and FS is to "well behaved".

If you spin that thought any further, and I know, I'm kinda revising my opinion from my other posts on that topic - It might actually be a good thing that DCS World is free to play in order to use the hype MS is creating and catch some new players.

Well, maybe I was not quite on point with my opinion there also I stand to what I said about ED needing more money.

Edit: FS 2020 for example is a no go for me, as long as there is no VR. Of course i will try it and fly over my house because i want to see the actual graphic, but thats it.

I agree. Just wanted to say that this was never my opinion. I think the opposite is the case. Since FS 2020 will be available in XBox and Xbox Live there is a fair chance that this new hype about flight simulator may actually draw some customers to DCS, because they notice that flying i actally awesome and FS is to "well behaved".

I think that ED has great potential with the MAC. As when XBOX users becomes interested for military flying, then MAC is great potential next to all other AAA titles.

True. Could be the next Ace Combat, but a bit more realistic.

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True. Could be the next Ace Combat, but a bit more realistic.

I believe that the spirit of the whole "Ace Combat" is the beefy "muricana" kind Hollywood action story and acting. And of course very seriously weight on the arcade.

So while MAC would be more serious and realistic, I don't think ED has any changes, or will to go challenge Ace Combat in that genre. As I believe MAC is wanted to be a stepping stone to DCS World.

Male, mid thirties, disposable income, little impulse control, reporting for duty.

a big LOL here.. ;-)

Make it early fifties, and no impulse control..

On Topic again:

I suggested to Nick a while back to have one of these 3rd party online stores for fans to purchase anything from t-shirt, coffee mugs and the likes. He replied that they were thinking about something like that, but I had the impression that it will not come to anything.

a big LOL here.. ;-)

 

Make it early fifties, and no impulse control..

 

On Topic again:

 

I suggested to Nick a while back to have one of these 3rd party online stores for fans to purchase anything from t-shirt, coffee mugs and the likes. He replied that they were thinking about something like that, but I had the impression that it will not come to anything.

It is not so easy to start a something like that. For a domestic purposes it is easier as if there are already manufacturer for all that, they can provide service for all the shipping etc from their warehouses to your customers. So you just are there to provide "more stuff" to buy.

But when it comes to international thing.... I can get a T-shirts made with 7-15 € a piece depending is it a sawed or printed image and on what areas. That is because there is a factory that I know the owners, so example whole T-shirt with good wash withstanding screen-printing is about that 15 € depending the shirt color (white is cheaper and was the red more expensive).

So why would someone buy more expensive shirt + shipping + possible VAT, when the most money wouldn't go to the studio anyways?

Similar thing is with the coffee mugs etc. Few euros to a mug, couple extra for a heat reacting etc.

Is it really nice if your T-shirt would cost like 35-50 € and coffee mug a 35-40 € while your money goes 80% to anywhere else than ED or other studios?

What I still see as a best option to support ED, is to buy licenses and gift them anonymously via some various sources to proper target groups.

If I want T-shirt, coffee mug etc, I get them other means (but I don't, your mileage may vary).

Shure? A little bonus can do wonders in terms of motivation. Trust me... ;-)

Sometimes yes. Other times, often, it doesn't work as you'd want it. Sometimes all it does is expose the employees that are pure mercenary: they'll crank out production for each extra dollar... but the quality may suffer enough that it's not worth asking for in the first place. People get burned out, fatigued. And from what I gather, coders are already under a lot of stress and put in long hours AS IT IS. Adding a tiny bonus may well not appeal to them anywhere near as much as having an unexpected day off. Also, don't forget: the more you make, the more you get taxed. Some countries, such bonuses do NOT make much sense, suddenly you are taxed so much that you'd be nearly working those extra hours for free, the bonus mostly going to taxes.

I can appreciate that people want to improve the stability of the company, the stablity of the DCS World, make improvements to AI, weather and make older missions keep working properly for years... but these problems may not have ANYTHING to do with cashflow or profits. There simply may not be very much expertise in the computer coding industry, for flight simulation style games (or sims), at ANY price. Another issue is that too many complex projects become unmanageable, often they may not scale. I've seen many times how groups will sometimes put too many irons in the fires, and doesn't take long before things get forgotten, abandoned, neglected, where it might have been better to simply shelv it for later when people have completed some other projects and can now focus well on the one or two now assigned.

This thread has given me insight into why a subscription could help ED. And yet as we see, there are downsides to it too, significant ones. But it's worth considering it's not up to us, and really, we have probably less and 2% of the information relevant to actually making decisions about pay models/structures for this company. Really it's all in the hands of their CFO and CEO, only they have access to enough data to make such decisions for the best interests of ED. As it should be.

Just because subscription is being used by other game companies and services, doesn't mean it was even the best for them. The rise of use of Linux and it's free office products have not made a big dent in MS offerings, but I expect that will be increasing enough to put a small bleed, a possible "death by papercut" scenario. Also, looking at game development for a much more mainstream audience, there's really significant unhappiness and uncertainty growing. People are now openly wondering why game content is so much smaller/limited today than it was 10 years ago, but paid DLC's are now neverending, microtransactions and pay to win causing people to give up on product. Locked out of making mods or fixes. AAA game studios charging big bucks, while the customers are increasingly critical.

Some of you might be interested in the thoughts of BlueDrake42, a youtuber personality who runs his own community site, hosts many servers (mostly for various 1st person shooter games).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNSwcDEUfIEzYdAPscXo6ZA

He's been talking about some of these issues for years, and he's actually DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Yep, he's right now got a dev team developing two different FPS's, because he doesn't like what the industry is doing/notdoing. While they don't appear to be very spectactular yet... their development seems to be picking up speed. The ww2 shooter will be a modest cost, which helps fund the modern shooter which will be 100% free. And since it's their own code, they can make whatever mods they want, not subject to terms of service. Anyway, he also showcases some unique game engines, and some spectacular mods or game levels that fans have made, some of whom are taking the level design of a 20 year old game (007 Goldeneye, MEtalGearSolid, among others) and rendering it in Unreal4, for instance.

Ok enough rambliing, on with the shouting match about revenue structure!

Why it always sounds that people do not understand what the "Microsoft Flight 2020" is all about.

 

What Microsoft really has done, is take their access for "Bing Maps" and build a flight simulator on it. Creating new weather engine (most parts it looks amazing, but once you see through the engine limitations, you see it is not so different from what we already have in DCS World) and all the aircraft simulation required base.

I think since FS has not been "new" for a very long time, there are newer flight enthusiasts who have not tried or seen what FS is about.

Uh... there's a WHOLE lot more to the new FS than it's terrain engine and it's clouds. The actual wind model is NOTHING like DCS, or any other flight simulation. It's a totally new thing. Similarities are only on the most superficial level, scratch that surface and you'll be surprised.

The DCS World is (IMHO) at far better situation by many ways (and in many ways not so much) because Eagle Dynamics understood that doing own engines and terrains etc has its benefits. If they could have just license a new engine etc, they would have. But when nothing on market offers what is needed technically and business vice, you make your own.

That was almost certainly true when they started DCS World. And even last year, that was probably true then too. But now that FS2020 is about to release, it MIGHT no longer be a guarantee to be true, there MIGHT be benefits to pairing FS2020 game engine with the DCS world structure and AI. Maybe, but maybe not.

Is a Microsoft Flight 2020 threat to DCS World? No. Not at all, in my opinion. Too completely different target audiences.

I disagree partially: yes, there is the different focus, combat vs civil. But I'd suggest that at least some percentage of the audience/market will overlap, people who love both combat flight AND civil flight. For instance myself, I'll be buying the full premium FS on day one, and will look forward to 3rd party addons that are already announced, like PMDG's Douglas DC-6 propliner. But maybe I'm unique and weird. Then again, I do see that there's at least a small percentage of DCS fans here who also love auto racing simulations, just saw a few posts in hardware where someone is trying to use racing pedals as rudder pedals for DCS, and a few replies came back explaining how to go about it. I mean, most of us don't own only one game/sim, and will often span different genres.

This is why ED has likely never allowed any third party studio to develop a civilian aircraft to DCS World.

DCS: Christen Eagle II

DCS: Yak-52

I know, I'm not making a strong case here, but I'm just pointing out that this has already happened.

Neither has cannons, neither has pylons. Ok, sure the Yak was used by several airforces to train newbie pilots... but also for lots of civilian pilots too.

I've no idea if more are being developed as pay modules.

The Microsoft Flight 2020 presents various "threats" to DCS World. It is about expectations from the users. Be it a lighting or a terrain or something else. But it is there. And that can not be denied. But it is nothing at all that "Now the people who want to fly military missions will go to MS Flight 2020!". Does Microsoft eventually allow military aircrafts and all to come to their simulator? We really don't know.

Yes, agreed about the top part. The expectations won't change right away, but over time, it may become more and more obvious just how far ahead in terrain visual quality the one product is over the other. Will that make a massive difference? Maybe maybe not.

I agree that people who want to fly combat missions won't use FS2020, they'll use WaarThunder! :lol: Nah, joking! Ok, so FS has had a LOT of military aircraft available for every single FS since perhaps FS98 and maybe even before that. None of them actually shot or bombed, and some of the free ones were of questionable fidelity, but I've flown more military aircraft in FS2004 than in all other simulators combined.

Then there are the three sims where MS allowed shooting: MS Combat Flight Simulator 1, 2 and 3. If memory serves, the first was European theatre, the second was Pacific Theatre with carrier landings, and the third was European theatre but with better more complex missions and better visuals. Will MS revisit the Combat products? I've no idea, but they might. And that might put a tiny dent in companies offering WW2 flightsims.

It is not so easy to start a something like that. For a domestic purposes it is easier as if there are already manufacturer for all that, they can provide service for all the shipping etc from their warehouses to your customers. So you just are there to provide "more stuff" to buy.

 

But when it comes to international thing.... I can get a T-shirts made with 7-15 € a piece depending is it a sawed or printed image and on what areas. That is because there is a factory that I know the owners, so example whole T-shirt with good wash withstanding screen-printing is about that 15 € depending the shirt color (white is cheaper and was the red more expensive).

So why would someone buy more expensive shirt + shipping + possible VAT, when the most money wouldn't go to the studio anyways?

 

Similar thing is with the coffee mugs etc. Few euros to a mug, couple extra for a heat reacting etc.

 

Is it really nice if your T-shirt would cost like 35-50 € and coffee mug a 35-40 € while your money goes 80% to anywhere else than ED or other studios?

 

What I still see as a best option to support ED, is to buy licenses and gift them anonymously via some various sources to proper target groups.

 

If I want T-shirt, coffee mug etc, I get them other means (but I don't, your mileage may vary).

You both make good points. It's true, tshirt sales through one of the interwebz shirt companies won't generate all that much revenue... but it might work with some refinement. Maybe get a regional/continental shirt printer company to become an Amazon affiliate and order them that way? Or pay the money to ED, they then order up a shirt from a small shop located near you?

Hmm... you know, recently I watched my buddies' daughter make her own custom shirt: she found a meme from a picture search, printed it onto an iron-on transfer "paper", and then proceeded to actually use a clothing iron to heat the image onto the T-shirt. Didn't cost much at all. Maybe ED could get a printer going, printing up transfer sheets, make 'em for a dollar each, sell them for $10, and you and I get to pick our own shirt sizes. Best part, most of the revenue goes right to ED, other than shipping.

I dunno!

Another possiblity: subscription compromise, make DCS World free for the first six months, or first year, then a small subscription fee, say $3 per month for anyone with 4 addon modules. This would keep the price totally free for newbies wanting to try but aren't sure to drop big cash on DCS, but would also provide a modest revenue stream for core engine upgrades paid by dedicated users. And other than that, keep the pricing structure mostly intact, maybe cool it with the %50 off sales, keep 'em to %10 or 25% off sales like most normal companies do.

Maybe there should be regional pricing too. I'm not sure it makes sense for Russians, Africans and South Americans to pay the same as North Americans or Europeans, when they make generally so much less income. Maybe bump up the prices for North Americans and Europeans, and bump down the other regions? If the pricing in poorer regions was more affordable, the number of increased customers MAY offset or even surpass their current totals with today's pricing structure.

Then again, it's starting to look like incomes and financial status may soon undergo some major restructuring over the next decade or so.

I've been playing flight sims since 1997 (lol at the guy who suggested that since I support a subscription model, I must be "new" to the game).

Everyone wishing/thinking/expecting that Microsoft FS 2020 will have a partnership with Eagle Dynamics or ever include a serious combat element of any kind are delusional IMO. That has always been 100% against the MSFS brand and it looks even more so based on the 2020 marketing so far. Ain't gonna happen. Yes, there were MSCFS games. I played them, too (they were great). Yes, they were completely separate both in marketing and sales structure to the MSFS brand.

For better or worse, we're stuck in the DCS engine for the foreseeable future. I hope all those opposed to subscription models are happy with how things are.

I remember when MS decided to close its flight sim studios several years ago and how many people were surprised about this step (me including). Partnership is always a dificult matter and who knows the future of the MSFS. I really appreciate the effort of ED developing its own flight simulator and really looking forward to the future of DCS