Please bring back object size settings!

Does. Not. Exist. It doesn't even exist on consoles, where people can still have variable TVs or turbo controllers.

 

I have a full cockpit (including a dozen or so control panels and soon to be professional grade controls), triple monitors, head tracking, and my ENTIRE system is liquid cooled top end electronics. A guy playing with a 960 and logitech entry level HOTAS is grossly, inconceivably disadvantaged.

 

"Variable pixel size" is the least of the "inequalities" in this environment lol

I would suggest we try to keep this on topic and as civil as possible.

Does. Not. Exist. It doesn't even exist on consoles, where people can still have variable TVs or turbo controllers.

 

I have a full cockpit (including a dozen or so control panels and soon to be professional grade controls), triple monitors, head tracking, and my ENTIRE system is liquid cooled top end electronics. A guy playing with a 960 and logitech entry level HOTAS is grossly, inconceivably disadvantaged.

 

"Variable pixel size" is the least of the "inequalities" in this environment lol

While your right there are advantages to some equipment...in your scenario the guy with the 960 and logitech can simply go spend a few thousand dollars and be right there with you so you really don't have a competitive advantage that's not easily overcomable. With the Pixel limitations as it stands now there is no solution. You likely have an advantage on me in any scenario assuming your monitors aren't 4K that I can't overcome without adjusting object size. And again we want this to be something the host can turn on or off so this will not negatively effect anyone.

I would suggest we try to keep this on topic and as civil as possible.

My comment was both on topic and civil, despite not being what you want to hear.

While your right there are advantages to some equipment...in your scenario the guy with the 960 and logitech can simply go spend a few thousand dollars and be right there with you so you really don't have a competitive advantage that's not easily overcomable. With the Pixel limitations as it stands now there is no solution. You likely have an advantage on me in any scenario assuming your monitors aren't 4K that I can't overcome without adjusting object size. And again we want this to be something the host can turn on or off so this will not negatively effect anyone.

You can lower your resolution, technically, and instantly be on the same level, plus higher framerates.

I'm not disputing the request for the feature, that's fine and all. Generally more "options" is rarely a bad thing.

I was just disputing the notion of "level playing field". It doesn't exist. If you take ten different people, you're apt to have 10 wildly different setups with their own strengths and weaknesses, biased with more advantage toward people willing to spend more, or people willing to run lower settings to get a higher framerate, or or or. It's the nature of PC gaming.

He with the deepest pocket or willingness to min/max wins (barring a massive skill discrepancy, all the advantage in the world won't save you if you genuinely suck)

In this day and age of GPUs that are plenty powerful I have no need for more FPS as I'm already above 60 with all settings maxed out in 4K;) I would think we should be able to enjoy the sim at a resolution of our choosing without the need for labels or a label mod to see and be effective...

The beauty of the system is that you don't have to use it if you don't want to

This system makes setting up new players more complicated, server owner's life more complicated, troubleshooting more complicated, and doesn't solve the issue for multiplayer, so the solution that doesn't involve a new setting and that will also work in multi is much better.

This system makes setting up new players more complicated, server owner's life more complicated, troubleshooting more complicated, and doesn't solve the issue for multiplayer, so the solution that doesn't involve a new setting and that will also work in multi is much better.

Completely disagree with all points your trying to make. You have a default setting that's the same as it is now. New players won't have one bit of new trouble with it. There is no troubleshooting it's your object size. And as someone who routinely works with new players and has Admin rights to a dedicated server with a large group of flyers, this wouldn't complicate things one bit...you either have it turned on or off in your server...

Completely disagree with all points your trying to make. You have a default setting that's the same as it is now. New players won't have one bit of new trouble with it. There is no troubleshooting it's your object size. And as someone who routinely works with new players and has Admin rights to a dedicated server with a large group of flyers, this wouldn't complicate things one bit...you either have it turned on or off in your server...

Alright, let me make it shorter : as they did before, most multiplayer servers will force that option off, so this will fix only solo, so it's not the correct way to adresse this issue.

Don't get me wrong, it is a real problem, it needs fixing, but not with the object size setting as before.

Not asking for a permanent fix with this. Asking for the stop gap fix to be reinsituted until the permanent solution can be worked out. We had it, we lost it, we are asking for it back. Simple as that.

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Alright, let me make it shorter : as they did before, most multiplayer servers will force that option off, so this will fix only solo, so it's not the correct way to adresse this issue.

 

Don't get me wrong, it is a real problem, it needs fixing, but not with the object size setting as before.

I would wager that with the amount of VR users exponentially higher than when the scaling was first implemented people will eagerly revisit the issue. This is apparent to how many VR users are using some sort of label mod. Name a WWII server that doesn't use the label mod. All the regulars do. As usual people will tinker with it, if its not ideal, but the functionality allowed from ED is what's needed to make good use of it. The current state of the engine, while it looks great, has a flaw. Many users and even youtubers feel the need to map a zoom control, or use a mod of some sort. How would you reconcile that market demand?

My comment was both on topic and civil, despite not being what you want to hear.

 

 

 

You can lower your resolution, technically, and instantly be on the same level, plus higher framerates.

 

I'm not disputing the request for the feature, that's fine and all. Generally more "options" is rarely a bad thing.

 

I was just disputing the notion of "level playing field". It doesn't exist. If you take ten different people, you're apt to have 10 wildly different setups with their own strengths and weaknesses, biased with more advantage toward people willing to spend more, or people willing to run lower settings to get a higher framerate, or or or. It's the nature of PC gaming.

 

He with the deepest pocket or willingness to min/max wins (barring a massive skill discrepancy, all the advantage in the world won't save you if you genuinely suck)

Understanding the pitfalls of distinction without a difference is important to a conducive conversation. To dispute a point context is required. To argue words used it isn't.

Yes, it is definitely more difficult to spot a target in 4k. A 4k pixel is smaller than a 1080p pixel... so, another distant aircraft is more difficult to spot in 4k.

That assumes there is a sprite or imposter system that prevents objects from reducing in size below a single pixel. As far as I know that’s not being done anymore in DCS. If objects reduce in size by perspective alone, then a higher resolution screen would be an obvious advantage.

That assumes there is a sprite or imposter system that prevents objects from reducing in size below a single pixel. As far as I know that’s not being done anymore in DCS. If objects reduce in size by perspective alone, then a higher resolution screen would be an obvious advantage.

Other than looking a lot better...4K Resolution puts you at a huge disadvantage! Objects that other flyers can see quite well aren't even visible. It's quite obvious when flying in formation with someone with a low resolution like 1080P when they are able to see something like a tanker 10-15 miles before someone in 4K at the exact same distance. This is a very well known issue. While a revamp of the way things are scaled would be great and a wonderful long term solution. This would be a very easy and welcome fix in the short term.

That assumes there is a sprite or imposter system that prevents objects from reducing in size below a single pixel. As far as I know that’s not being done anymore in DCS. If objects reduce in size by perspective alone, then a higher resolution screen would be an obvious advantage.

Going down to a single pixel is more of a problem than it seems at first glance (pun intended). Anti-aliasing and shaders also must be considered. If an aircraft is only represented as a single pixel the shader logic might try to blend the pixel effectively making it disappear as the color of the pixel is blended into the background. This happens until the object is close/large enough to take up more pixels and be visible regardless of the aforementioned effects. How and when this happens and if there is a border around the object all play a factor in how visible an object is.

Unless I had two monitors side by side to compare, I wouldn’t know. From my experience on a 1080p Monitor I feel like I can see objects at exactly the same distance but with more clarity. 2160p is definitely not a disadvantage as far as I’m concerned. Only the old imposter system created sprites that were a fixed number of pixels. Those would certainly appear larger at lower resolutions. But that feature is gone now. On a 4K screen you would theoretically see a single black pixel where 1080p sees (4) 25% grey ones.

I don’t feel like 4K allows me to see further objects more so than 1080p because those are very small. Where it helps is identifying things. The chief visibility issue IMO for DCS is contrast and color. In situations of good contrast I can see other aircraft farther away than they will generate labels. If you’re comparing visibility with another teammate there might be a number of reasons why, unrelated to resolution.

I don’t know exactly how DCS renders distant objects so I have no idea if this is a real problem or not. The old Model Enlargement was full of problems though and just didn’t work.

Now the resolution is much better and clearer but objects are much smaller than they should at any distance.

Not really true. The objects on your screen are exactly the same size as before. Not considering text, labels etc. 2160p does not change the size of 3D objects, it just renders them with more pixels.

The impostor system did work! Was it perfect? No. But way better than using labels.

The "single black pixel" system is not working. First off, it does not work well together with any form of AA on higher resolution screens. No MFAA with DS means most likely FXAA for anti-aliasing, making the situation even worse...

Second, the issue is not only at long distances, it concerns close in aswell (2-8km) The aircraft models are way too tiny and tend to "blend in" with any form of background or in a clear blue sky. So that is both a size and color/contrast issue.

I have been in dogfights in DCS since 2014 and majority of the time it is 2-6 pilots in a furball trying to find one another. In coop missions, it is "standard practice" to drop flares cause you need to signal your position cause wingman will loose you while checking a gauge for 2sec.

Some sort of scalable system will be fine until someone has a better solution. Don't like it? Already have great spotting on your 1024x768 CRT screen? Then don't use it :)

What is the “single black pixel system”?

I’m still running v 1.5

I highly recomment brining back object size. Game is not playable in 4k resolution. everything becomes small

Unless I had two monitors side by side to compare, I wouldn’t know. From my experience on a 1080p Monitor I feel like I can see objects at exactly the same distance but with more clarity. 2160p is definitely not a disadvantage as far as I’m concerned. Only the old imposter system created sprites that were a fixed number of pixels. Those would certainly appear larger at lower resolutions. But that feature is gone now. On a 4K screen you would theoretically see a single black pixel where 1080p sees (4) 25% grey ones.

I don’t feel like 4K allows me to see further objects more so than 1080p because those are very small. Where it helps is identifying things. The chief visibility issue IMO for DCS is contrast and color. In situations of good contrast I can see other aircraft farther away than they will generate labels. If you’re comparing visibility with another teammate there might be a number of reasons why, unrelated to resolution.

I don’t know exactly how DCS renders distant objects so I have no idea if this is a real problem or not. The old Model Enlargement was full of problems though and just didn’t work.

 

 

Not really true. The objects on your screen are exactly the same size as before. Not considering text, labels etc. 2160p does not change the size of 3D objects, it just renders them with more pixels.

I'm happy that your satisfied but that is simply not what anyone else I know is seeing. And obviously I'm not alone as everyone of the large group I fly with is effected by this and there are about 5 pages here of people who are seeing the same thing, a dramatic loss of ability to see any object at a distance without the aid of zooming which I know have mapped on my Hotas.

The single pixel system he's talking about is a label mod that replaces the labels with a single black or grey dot to help see a plane at a distance that someone running 1080P can since there is a dramatic difference.

I agree about the clarity. I personally wouldn't fly without 4K. Everything compared looks blurry once you've tried it.

a dramatic loss of ability to see any object at a distance without the aid of zooming

Well that’s the problem. In any flight sim the zoom view is a rather critical feature. 4K resolution doesn’t make anything on your screen larger so it’s necessary to zoom view just like before although not as much. I don’t need to zoom in now just to read the cockpit.

If the “dot” label mod is causing a problem, and it certainly would. Then the old imposter system was just as bad or worse since it was also pixel oriented. What might appear as a small speck on a 4K monitor would be a giant blob at 1080p. It allowed players to see targets BVR without even using radar. It rendered trucks the size of skyscrapers.

Well that’s the problem. In any flight sim the zoom view is a rather critical feature. 4K resolution doesn’t make anything on your screen larger so it’s necessary to zoom view just like before although not as much. I don’t need to zoom in now just to read the cockpit.

 

If the “dot” label mod is causing a problem, and it certainly would. Then the old imposter system was just as bad or worse since it was also pixel oriented. What might appear as a small speck on a 4K monitor would be a giant blob at 1080p. It allowed players to see targets BVR without even using radar. It rendered trucks the size of skyscrapers.

The "dot" label mod is not causing a problem. It is a stop gap that helps make DCS combat flyable with 4K. Otherwise air to air combat is next to impossible. As you can't see the opfor. And no 4K definitely doesn't make things larger. Again it shrinks the size of everything due to pixel size. Just like the VR guys are seeing with the high resolution they are rendering with their Pixel Density settings. The older system wasn't perfect but it at least allowed the user to control things and tailor their experience. Again this can be regulated in MP by the server host...But now we are all forced to not have any visibility at what should be a very visible distance in 4K and VR. That's why I and many others are saying please bring this setting back until a newer scaling system is implemented.

+1 on doing something for the visibility in DCS.

I don't know if bringing back scaling is a good idea though, reading about it above. I'd rather see a more thought through system.

I run a 3440x1440p screen, and I have trouble seeing other aircraft. Mainly because of the one-small-pixel problem, but that is also enhanced by AA making the few pixels I see blend into the background. That can make somewhat realistic sense on longer distances, but for close distances, it's kid of bad. For me contrast on the pixels representing other aircraft is the main issue. If they where darker (and not blended with AA - I force it through the Nvidia control panel (maybe I should stop doing that...)) then I'd see them easier. IRL I have no issue spotting a relatively small aircraft at about 6nm, but in DCS I'm practically blind (I can see larger a/c, like the A380, at more than double that distance).

I'd also suggest a cut-off ranges where aircraft are not rendered. Tankers and other big a/c should be seen from longer distances - smaller could have a shorter render ranges.

Another issue that would have to be considered with a rework of this would be navigation lights. In dark conditions, I can spot a/c's with nav-lights from more than 10 miles off, no problem. in DCS, they are not visible beyond 1 nm.

So many issues here -.-'

//Jarl

This is only sim that has this serious vis problem. But maybe scaling is fixed someday.

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+1 as well. curious what other combat flight sims do to get around this major issue? wonder if a similar system could be emulated :pilotfly:

+1 It would be great to have some smart scaling option for ground vehicles. Aircraft visibility also problematic for me in fullHD/24inches.

It doesn't have to be sprite imposers. Asking the actual 3d model could work as well.