The economics of modules

I'm just curious about the money behind these DCS a/c modules. I'm not interested in how much profit the various developers make (they are businesses, not charities), more about how big the DCS community actually is. For a popular module like the F14 how many copies are sold? Hundreds? Thousands?

I always considered the flight simming community to be quite niche, with relatively few players, but many of those few willing to spend a lot to indulge their hobbies. Just look at the sheer breadth of add-ons for Microsoft Flight Sim in it's various guises, X-plane and P3d.

If one were to commission a module what would be a reasonable ball-park figure for something like the community developed A4, or a limited FC3 module, versus a full study sim like the Hornet or Tomcat? How many man-hours go into these projects?

How many hours go into Modules?

Depends on how much a dev cares but usually about countless hours.

I would guess 6-8 Devs with a PM full time for 2 years.

That would be ~30-35k manhours with a general cost of $125/hr. including benefits in US (other places may be cheaper but with other overhead costs)

So ballpark rom for me would be in the $2.5-4M range not counting any other significant costs (infrastructure, dev tools, licensing, etc.). Those things could add up to $1m or more.

I would guess 6-8 Devs with a PM full time for 2 years.

 

That would be ~30-35k manhours with a general cost of $125/hr. including benefits in US (other places may be cheaper but with other overhead costs)

 

So ballpark rom for me would be in the $2.5-4M range not counting any other significant costs (infrastructure, dev tools, licensing, etc.). Those things could add up to $1m or more.

That would mean selling approx 15,000 copies @ $70 to get the low end of your figures.

I cant imagine that's happening?

Yes, but a sim this complex, you know they have military buyers and investors. Just like "Arma" (VBS), it's where they're making their money.

I would guess 6-8 Devs with a PM full time for 2 years.

 

That would be ~30-35k manhours with a general cost of $125/hr. including benefits in US (other places may be cheaper but with other overhead costs)

 

So ballpark rom for me would be in the $2.5-4M range not counting any other significant costs (infrastructure, dev tools, licensing, etc.). Those things could add up to $1m or more.

Years back I recall Wags saying that average module development costs are around $500'000.

Yes, but a sim this complex, you know they have military buyers and investors. Just like "Arma" (VBS), it's where they're making their money.

Or The Battle Simulator in DCS’s case. I know CMANO also offer a professional edition for think tanks and defence ministries. I suppose the professional aspect supports a fair chunk of the development of these systems.

That would mean selling approx 15,000 copies @ $70 to get the low end of your figures.

 

 

I cant imagine that's happening?

You can't imagine that globally there are 15,000 people willing to spend $60-70 on their hobby? Flight sims are a niche, it's true, and hardcore even more so, nevetheless as the only ''modern jet'' sim on the market that is not woefully outdated, I expect the DCS community numbers at least a few hundred thousand, if not a couple million. Not every person buys every module, but put bluntly, if they weren't making a profit, they wouldn't be doing it. This is still a business and money doesn't sprout of Wags' bunghole (though I'm sure he would love if it did), so it's reasonable to assume each module is selling at least a few tens of thousands of copies if it's even remotely successful.

The multiplayer lobby is not equal to the population. In total it only accounts for a few thousand players, if that. The majority of them are logically offline. Likewise, most people aren't active on the forums. I myself played and lurked for years before creating an account here.

Well, maybe. That would be no profits and cover costs only so 15,000 @ $70 would be the real low end.

I don’t know about DCS but in P3D / FSX if you sell 15,000 of anything you would be doing really well.

As we don’t know the sales figures it’s really hard to know anything. I hope they do sell way more than 15,000 copies for obvious reasons!

The multiplayer lobby is not equal to the population. In total it only accounts for a few thousand players, if that. The majority of them are logically offline. Likewise, most people aren't active on the forums. I myself played and lurked for years before creating an account here.

Good point, I've been doing this a long time but only recently joined the forum and have yet to sample MP flying.

Yep I would also like to know...

It's hard to believe that a module have been bought by 15.000 people.Like said flight sims are niche and hardcore -especially DCS-.Requires good hardware, countless hours of training, reading, learning.May be F-16 will sell that much.It's my guess though.

Do you guys remember how many people watched the F-14 reveal stream? Weren't there something like 9,000+ ppl watching that stream? I would guess most of the people watching that were interested enough in the F-14 to buy it. And probably a number of purchasers were unable to tune in to the stream.

Some points of clarity -

I used US resource pricing, which means it might be done for less. 75% less I doubt, and I seriously doubt that $500k figure given the complexity of the software and the time it takes to make a fully functional module (not EA).

Also - Don't forget that employers have overhead like taxes, benefits, licenses, hardware and software for development, and other costs that also add up per employee.

Given the time it takes to get modules through the door, I still think $1.5-2M with the assumption of foreign labor at lower cost as still a valid ROM (albeit low) for such a large and complex undertaking.

The reason you take this on as a company is boilerplate sales - you write the code once and continue to sell that same code in perpetuity. And hopefully reap additional future benefits creating 'new to users' material with the same or slightly modified code.

I would think 15,000 is actually a little low for a popular module. Just some back of the envelope math in my head, ED would have to be moving more units than that even as an Indy game company. We are talking about over a 100 people on salary right?

I think I saw somewhere there were about 50k DCS users on steam. A lot of those probably download ot to try the free planes and move on. But combined with standalone I imagine the mainstream modules sell considerably more than 15,000.

One thing is for sure, in the market of flight simulations, they are number 1 in sales.

Though i do not approve of their latest waste of energy and resources on WWII stuffs when you can already have entire historical battles simulated to an at least comparable level of realism and immersion (if not more due to more maps/planes included per purchase) and priced much lower like IL2 Sturmovik BoX.

I wish ED would focus on what they do best, which is Cold War and Modern Jet/Heli simulation with all their systems with an amazing level of details...

That is unique on the market and they have no equal with that, no competition whatsoever. This is what most of DCS fans want to see, just looking at various indicators.

I would rather see ED focus all their talent on what they excel at and let 3rd party devs to take care of simple modules like WWII/WWI. Cause with all the energy they've spent, we'd already have the F16 by now and possibly other exciting high fidelity complex modules that are worth the price. Just my opinion though.

One thing is for sure, in the market of flight simulations, they are number 1 in sales.

 

Though i do not approve of their latest waste of energy and resources on WWII stuffs when you can already have entire historical battles simulated to an at least comparable level of realism and immersion (if not more due to more maps/planes included per purchase) and priced much lower like IL2 Sturmovik BoX.

 

I wish ED would focus on what they do best, which is Cold War and Modern Jet/Heli simulation with all their systems with an amazing level of details...

 

That is unique on the market and they have no equal with that, no competition whatsoever. This is what most of DCS fans want to see, just looking at various indicators.

 

I would rather see ED focus all their talent on what they excel at and let 3rd party devs to take care of simple modules like WWII/WWI. Cause with all the energy they've spent, we'd already have the F16 by now and possibly other exciting high fidelity complex modules that are worth the price. Just my opinion though.

And that is just your opinion because they have said ww2 is their best return on investment. And although I do occasionally play that other sim I prefer DCS by a large margin even for ww2. The increased depth in systems management dcs has over it makes for far better immersion and more enjoyment. The flight sim community is quite diverse and there's room in DCS for all of us from ww2 to civil to cold war to modern. It always disapoints me when someone disparages someone else's niche because it "wastes resources" that could be spent on their own pet project.

That would mean selling approx 15,000 copies @ $70 to get the low end of your figures.

 

 

I cant imagine that's happening?

I did a simple "calculation" of the user base based on forum names. I think I came up with ~70k users on ED forums (I don't remember the exact number) but just go to user names, and you get a page with X names, and there X pages so its easy enough to calculate.

I would think 15,000 is actually a little low for a popular module. Just some back of the envelope math in my head, ED would have to be moving more units than that even as an Indy game company. We are talking about over a 100 people on salary right?

I think I remember the number 55 being the company size.

And that is just your opinion because they have said ww2 is their best return on investment. And although I do occasionally play that other sim I prefer DCS by a large margin even for ww2. The increased depth in systems management dcs has over it makes for far better immersion and more enjoyment. The flight sim community is quite diverse and there's room in DCS for all of us from ww2 to civil to cold war to modern. It always disapoints me when someone disparages someone else's niche because it "wastes resources" that could be spent on their own pet project.

Exactly... I have my pet planes, but I'd never put down someone elses choice in what they think is cool.

I own all the warbirds except the new Russian one and the FW preorder. I own most of the WWII campaigns as well. Love em. The Spitfire Normandy campaigns are awesome.

55? Damn. A typical AAA big budget game from Rockstar could have 1000+ people working on it. If that is the case, people really need to recalibrate their expectations. I'm surprised the modules are as good as they are with such small teams.

55? Damn. A typical AAA big budget game from Rockstar could have 1000+ people working on it. If that is the case, people really need to recalibrate their expectations. I'm surprised the modules are as good as they are with such small teams.

Exactly!! Don't forget that they started out with simply modding lockon and only acquired the rights to the game engine a few years back

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55? Damn. A typical AAA big budget game from Rockstar could have 1000+ people working on it. If that is the case, people really need to recalibrate their expectations. I'm surprised the modules are as good as they are with such small teams.

I tracked down the article so I'm not spreading misinformation. Or if I am its "documented" :music_whistling:. But realistically most of the 3rd party dev teams are like 3-4 guys so it seems "in the ballpark".

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