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How finished is Harrier? The reason was that there were many features that were not a


lee1hy

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The arbs cant actually get a solution if the track rates are low. There are specific manouvers you would use to ensure a good ARBS lock as a pilot. Right now its slew to target and "magic".

 

Current ARBS arcadish manners are complete stabilization to ground.

It is a contrast based lock, and would require a good contrast either on the cross or possibly even the terrain tracking trough whole screen area?

 

But it is now magical how all targeting pods locks on ground and stay in position regardless the aircraft motions.

Looking real life pods functions, pilots are required to move point on target as it is slipping all over places.

 

A vehicle with high contrast is possible be tracked well, but even then lock should be sometimes lost and require relocking. This with ALL pods.

 

This is one of the major problems in DCS, like how unrealistically maverics can be locked on targets and launched at laughable long ranges, or how easily TPOD etc tracks targets, how Shkval cant lock on anything than living vehicle or building etc.

 

These are the common artificial systems problems, that should get more realistic simulation done.

It is already laughable how Litening is having most modern 4th generation FLIR that has been taken in use just 2019 or so, and has huge difference to even previous generation pods.

 

The ARBS should need a longer time of tracking and get as you say used with maneuvers to improve the system knowledge about values.

 

But it is said that ARBS is more accurate than a radar guided bombing with Hornet we have, so it means it is very accurate system, as long you have the weather conditions right.

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What about ARBS Air-Air usage? Like in this video:

 

Don't think that is implemented yet.

 

Not implemented, but should come.

 

The ARBS is broken at this moment.

At least on me it forgets its position and designates own positions after overfly, middle of targeting and doesn't like to be sleeved around but is very erratic.

 

That is why I don't fly Harrier as I can't perform even simple bombings or use mavericks etc.

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The deeper you dive into the Harrier, the more frustrated you get.

 

That's the point, people who says it's a blast, well, probably they aren't Harrier virtual pilots, they just fly it some times.

 

People who know what to espect from the machine and want to bring the machine in combat in a complex enviroment with high training standards know what i'm talking about.

 

Anyway, i love the Harrier, the problem is Razbam. Hope they will change. :thumbup:

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I was waiting for the trial as I wanted a couple of days to try it out. At half price I think it's a great deal so I bought it. I'm certainly in the camp of pilots who study the hell out of the aircraft manuals and watch all the superb YouTube videos to progress with the aircraft, so no doubt I'll discover some of the limitations along the way.

 

To put things in perspective with DCS though, this time last year I was in the Typhoon simulator here in the UK, I'd say you could call the Typhoon simulator building a state of the art, multi million pound complex (and all it does is one type of aircraft). DCS does a hell of a job to go some way towards that experience on a desktop PC, monitor and VR headset for what is loose change in comparison.

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Maybe they added artificial dispersion which would be the reverse way to do it. :smilewink:

 

I wasn't talking about dispersion.

 

I was talking about having the actual bombing computer simulated with its various sources of error. Set the QFE on the viggen wrong, and your bombs miss, that sort of thing.

 

Frankly I'd be happy with some sort of

 

1. "Accquistion time" for a target lock based on track rates and ranges for the ARBS, including a no solution/crappy solution state if the track rate is under 2mrad/sec (So it doesn't have a solution if you just drive into the target, nor does it solve at really long range where track rates would be lower) The initial solution should take a few seconds IMO, and the longer you track the target under good conditions the more refined the solution gets.

2. And some (1-3)% error in the slant range calc which gets better as you get closer obviously.

 

I also agree with Fri13 on the whole contrast lock issue but since that's a DCS wide problem I don't expect Raz to solve it.


Edited by Harlikwin

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Frankly I need to re-test, a long time I didn't try the Harrier.

 

A few month ago we were complaining that the ARBS wasn't accurate enough, now it's too accurate :lol:

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Frankly I need to re-test, a long time I didn't try the Harrier.

 

A few month ago we were complaining that the ARBS wasn't accurate enough, now it's too accurate :lol:

 

Its always been like this. If anything too accurate and not well modeled.

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I'm more worried by the (lack of) AG weapons blast radius.

In most case you need direct hit. :music_whistling:

 

This...I dropped a GBU-38 literally 2 feet in front of a parked plane last night and it did no damage.

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I'm more worried by the (lack of) AG weapons blast radius.

In most case you need direct hit. :music_whistling:

 

That has been always the problem when DCS doesn't simulate fragments, and expanding pressure wave can't be made too deadly when units still have just healthbars.

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This...I dropped a GBU-38 literally 2 feet in front of a parked plane last night and it did no damage.
Which is a generic issue with the bomb/explosion simulation in DCS and is out of Razbams hands.

So to be clear, any module in DCS that drops a bomb suffers from missing fragmentation damage.

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You can look at it this way - the arcade accuracy is offset by the sucky arcade modelling of bombs :P

 

The problem is that the accuracy is often far more effective than the modeling of the explosion.

 

Causin situations where missiles, bombs etc impact either perfectly or way too near of their targets, but compensated that the bombs has no enough "UGH!" to then damage something, as they simply either kill or not to kill, and that ain't the question!

 

So:

 

1) Fix the guidance by adding the realistic drifting and other inaccuracies for guidance laws, lock ranges etc.

 

2) Wait for a damage modeling to appear for ground units

 

3) Wait the fragmentation simulation (no need to run full raytracing simulation) to come around.

 

And then it starts to be more challenging for pilots to destroy things!

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The problem is that the accuracy is often far more effective than the modeling of the explosion.

 

 

 

Causin situations where missiles, bombs etc impact either perfectly or way too near of their targets, but compensated that the bombs has no enough "UGH!" to then damage something, as they simply either kill or not to kill, and that ain't the question!

 

 

 

So:

 

 

 

1) Fix the guidance by adding the realistic drifting and other inaccuracies for guidance laws, lock ranges etc.

 

 

 

2) Wait for a damage modeling to appear for ground units

 

 

 

3) Wait the fragmentation simulation (no need to run full raytracing simulation) to come around.

 

 

 

And then it starts to be more challenging for pilots to destroy things!

Yeah, but my guess is, if Razbam adds anything that "makes the bombs miss their targets more" before ED makes the bombs more realistic the ensuing epic shitstorm from hundreds of customers that bought the AV-8B expecting to actually NOT miss the target is worth a consideration. I can imagine a lot of people will complain more about not killing shit than, than the ones loving to see more bombs missing and failing their missions. Just saying.

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That will most likely happen, yes. But thats because corners was cut during system development. I know a lot of DCS players are not the "sim-crowd" and will be pissed once

bombs starts to miss. But is that a reason to lower the bar on fidelity? Isn't the point with DCS

the deep simulation and challenges it brings? You step away from that and we're soon in the "Combat Flight Games" realm.

 

As much as I like Razbam (and I will be the first in line for the MiG-23MLA and Sea Harrier)... It's healthy to call things like they are. The Av8b is lacking in the systems department, M2000C is going through a MAJOR overhaul (with a lot of systems that has previously been guesswork!), the MiG-19P... sort of works but the FM is still feeling like fly-by-wire compared to Tomcat, Viggen, MiG-21 and other cold war jets in DCS. Razbam is putting a lot of effort into the M2000C and Av8b right now, so Im slightly optimistic that they will sort the issues out.

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@shagrat, this sums up perfectly what's wrong with the Harrier and why there's a decently sized crowd asking for fixes.

 

The deeper you dive into the Harrier, the more frustrated you get.

Especially when you find something that don't work, look for it in the forum, realize that it is bugged since two years and that there has never been any comment from the Devs about it.

 

Don't forget that the vocal ones are the minority. For every 2 vocal individuals, there are 8 that have the same complaints but do not voice their miscontent!

 

As for the Harrier, there's a clear lack of polish in how the systems are laid out and the systems are clearly simplified, especially anything related to targeting and designation sources. I will quote a post I've made somewhere else:

 

On paper, it is pretty well featured, but in practice, it is "janky". Some examples:

 

  • Some MFD pages are missing the "screen texture", they’re a really deep (immersion breaking) black. (AV-8B)
  • Most of the targeting system is "magical" (no way to select the altitude source, be it barometric, radar or GPS, no way to enter the target altitude even though it appears on the Stores page)
  • Most HOTAS functions are badly implemented (namely the EHSD opens on the right MPCD instead of the left when SSS Left is pressed, preventing you from using the MPCD FLIR or DMT with SSS Right)
  • The HUD rejection switch is inverted (and has been for over a year)
  • No INS simulation (and degradation) as far as I've ever seen (staying in Nav and not IFA)
  • The HUD FLIR can’t be correctly aligned and therefore will make you miss when going for CCIP attacks.
  • The HUD FLIR is currently broken as it is WAY too bright.
  • In fact, no brightness knob is currently working, so everything is incredibly bright during night time (especially in 2.5.6)
  • The MPCD HUD repeater is basically a copy of the HUD texture superimposed over the screen (and it used to no be at the same "depth" as the screen), with a really weird color and completely bypassing the "screen" texture.

As for the targeting source, you're supposed to select the targeting/slewing source using Sensor Select Switch Up and Down, as per the real manual. Currently, it does not matter whether you're in whatever mode, and the BCIP/BAUTO, RCIP/RAUTO, GCIP/GAUTO and CIP/AUTO logic is simply non-existent currently. Really, like I said, the targeting system is full of magic.


Edited by toilet2000
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That will most likely happen, yes. But thats because corners was cut during system development. I know a lot of DCS players are not the "sim-crowd" and will be pissed once

 

bombs starts to miss. But is that a reason to lower the bar on fidelity?

I don't think the problem is, that bombs miss (actually they do miss quite a bit), but the part where the target drives happily away. That said, I would love to see wind correction and target movement lead implemented. If it comes to "magic" lock on potential targets, I am not so sure as the dozen different hardware devices we use and their mechanics, combined with the screens we have (not even considering VR here) rather than eyes on a real MFCD needs some compensation. If Razbam gets the whole DMT/TDC/target lock representation on a similar accuracy we have with the Hornet TGP currently, I think we will all be happy.

At one point we may need to consider, that "most realistic representation" does not imply a 100% accurate replica of the real world system according to functionality specified in the original manual.

That does not mean they shouldn't try to be accurate in the first place, but I think the result of Razbams work is not nearly as "bad" as some people want us to believe.


Edited by shagrat

Shagrat

 

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I don't think the problem is, that bombs miss (actually they do miss quite a bit), but the part where the target drives happily away. That said, I would love to see wind correction and target movement lead implemented. If it comes to "magic" lock on potential targets, I am not so sure as the dozen different hardware devices we use and their mechanics, combined with the screens we have (not even considering VR here) rather than eyes on a real MFCD needs some compensation. If Razbam gets the whole DMT/TDC/target lock representation on a similar accuracy we have with the Hornet TGP currently, I think we will all be happy.

At one point we may need to consider, that "most realistic representation" does not imply a 100% accurate replica of the real world system according to functionality specified in the original manual.

That does not mean they shouldn't try to be accurate in the first place, but I think the result of Razbams work is not nearly as "bad" as some people want us to believe.

 

Its not that all of the work is bad. However much is misinterpreted from the manuals or how basic aircraft systems work or the lack there of all together. Like the very simple engine system damage model. Im speaking in terms of things, like when they are implemented. They are not correct or slightly off, and never get fixed, or take years to get back around to it. For example the Master warning / Master caution system logic. Current state is incorrect. You dont have to be as you have stated in your previous posts "A Rivet Counter" to know that when you depress a Caution in this aircraft it doesnt silence the alert. Nor is that button even animated.

 

It is a sum of all its parts.

 

Little issues, yes not a big deal. However its the fact that there are so many little issues, and are never rectified that they start to add up. Even Cobra from HB will chime in from time to time to get status reports and an overall of the company and the Tomcat when their development has seem to be non existent or slow down. This from Razbam coupled with the absenteeism on the official forums for bug reports created almost two years ago in some cases.

 

yes you can have fun with the module. Still one of my most favorite. Its the passion of that creates the frustration of the progress and status quo


Edited by Shrike88
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I’ve been flying it the past week and tried the night training mission about an hour ago. Everything was blinding and the tpod was flickering like crazy. The whole plane was basically useless. A/V-8B night attack indeed.

 

Yep, the new DCS 2.5.6 broke lighting effects...again :doh:

ED is constantly tweaking graphics engine.

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Are you looking for a study-sim level aircraft? Do you enjoy reading the manual and follow real life checklists and procedures? Then the Harrier is not for you, avoid the frustration and stick to the A-10C, F-14 or Ka-50.

 

If on the other hand, you are ok with an FC3 experience with a clickable cockpit, you start from the runway or mid-air and just want to blow some shit up, then you will find the harrier is a blast, as so many eagerly point out at every occasion.

 

It's not bad per se, it's bad when you consider that it should be a DCS standard module.

If it was priced at 30 bucks and labeled as FC3+ or something, I wouldn't complain (but I wouldn't have bought it either 'cause I like the "study / high-fidelity" part of the sim).

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-sarcasm on- Jepp, it's so broken. Can't do a proper start up, nor do the weapon systems work as expected... -sarcasm off-

See for yourself:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4271646

Shagrat

 

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-sarcasm on- Jepp, it's so broken. Can't do a proper start up, nor do the weapon systems work as expected... -sarcasm off-

See for yourself:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4271646

 

Sarcasm? What you wrote it the simple truth. Hint: there is a difference between works, and works as expected.

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