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Old 01-13-2020, 04:08 PM   #61
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Abstract in the sense of you don't have to worry about it when you write a program on application level. Not abstract in the sense of complicated.

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Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
You can easily test this yourself by disabling and enabling HT in BIOS and you will see no significant performance difference. The developers can confirm this as well.
I've already explained the reason for this in a previous post of mine. It has nothing to do with DCS "not supporting hyperthreading" and everything with how DCS spreads its computational load over its threads. If the devs manage to spread the bulk of the CPU load evenly over many threads, you will most likely see a minor improvement from hyperthreading. You would see the same effect if it was possible to remove or add physical cores to your system. As long as you don't force additional threads into the CPU core that the main DCS thread runs in, removing physical OR logical cores has the same impact, namely none whatsoever.


But please, do tell me more about how to write multithreaded applications. /sarcasm
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by sobek View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
.
The CPU doesn't "have" a thread, the number simply states how many it can process quasi simultaneously.
i don’t think we are going to be able to help this guy.

he’s a youtube/wikipedia expert telling developers how the OS and cpu work.
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:52 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by sobek View Post
Abstract in the sense of you don't have to worry about it when you write a program on application level. Not abstract in the sense of complicated.



I've already explained the reason for this in a previous post of mine. It has nothing to do with DCS "not supporting hyperthreading" and everything with how DCS spreads its computational load over its threads. If the devs manage to spread the bulk of the CPU load evenly over many threads, you will most likely see a minor improvement from hyperthreading. You would see the same effect if it was possible to remove or add physical cores to your system. As long as you don't force additional threads into the CPU core that the main DCS thread runs in, removing physical OR logical cores has the same impact, namely none whatsoever.


But please, do tell me more about how to write multithreaded applications. /sarcasm
Oh, you're a coder, that's great. I just know a little R and had to take a class in C++ once. I actually need to learn Python. That's the common language in Finance and Economics. Have you thought about helping out with some of the community modules like the A-4? I bet they'd love to have your help. Or maybe put your resume in with ED so you can help DCS do multithreading in future builds.
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
Oh, you're a coder, that's great. I just know a little R and had to take a class in C++ once. I actually need to learn Python. That's the common language in Finance and Economics. Have you thought about helping out with some of the community modules like the A-4? I bet they'd love to have your help. Or maybe put your resume in with ED so you can help DCS do multithreading in future builds.
I've spent 6 years moderating this forum, translating manuals for DCS to German, providing voiceovers for official modules and doing closed beta testing so where do you get off telling my what I have to do for this community? Jeez.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:05 PM   #65
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i don’t think we are going to be able to help this guy.

he’s a youtube/wikipedia expert telling developers how the OS and cpu work.
Never asked for your help and I don't recall anyone else on this thread asking either. I was responding to the OP's question about Intel and AMD CPUs and the advantages and disadvantages for the DCS use case.

I'm not an expert in Youtube or Wikipedia. I've yet to make a YT video but I'm learning Blender so I can. I've never made a Wikipedia page either. But they're good to reference for people who have never built their own PC before, are confused about the terminology, or who don't understand that Hyperthreading is just a trademark name for multithreading.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:14 PM   #66
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I've spent 6 years moderating this forum, translating manuals for DCS to German, providing voiceovers for official modules and doing closed beta testing so how about you just stop telling me what I need to do for this community? Jeez.
No need to get rude. Just making a suggestion. I'm not sure why you would get offended or take this personally. Perhaps something is getting lost in translation. I didn't realize you were a moderator. You aren't listed as one.

I like to build PCs, overclock, and benchmark them. I like to help people with their new builds as it can get a little intimidating for some people.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:19 PM   #67
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and but don't

for all

Can we agree that we hope ED finds a way to offload more work from the main "who's name we cannot seem to agree about xyzTHREAD" to another core by definition, defined by the code.

I think we all know what we need and want, no need to argue terms and conditions we all don't know enough about to convince anybody with as much half wisdom as we have got ourselves.


Don't beat me now
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:29 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
Never asked for your help and I don't recall anyone else on this thread asking either.
i was trying to help you understand that DCS is multithreaded and always has been. you said we were wrong and wanted to double down and argue.

i am happy to have this conversation with you in private, but i would ask that you stop spreading the “dcs doesn’t multithreaded” misinformation in the forums.

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Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
who don't understand that Hyperthreading is just a trademark name for multithreading.
please reread what we posted.

Hyperthreading is NOT a trademark name for multithreading. it’s a hardware feature that allows some workloads (almost never games) go a little faster in very specialized scenarios. it has very little to do with multithreaded applications and for most discussions it can basically be ignored altogether.

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Old 01-13-2020, 10:56 PM   #69
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Can you please tape your mouth.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:14 AM   #70
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I just did a quick test of Sobek's thesis on 2 and 4 cores with HT on and off. This was at 1440p High settings.

On 2 cores with HT disabled the cores were both pegged at 100% the whole time and the frame rate varied between 110-120 fps and was kind of choppy on the frametime graph.

On the rest of the tests frame rate rate varied between 110-120 fps as well but was smoother frametime wise and the cores never pegged to 100% and the utilization bounced around on the Afterburner OSD between the logical and physical cores. No noticeable difference in the 4 core HT on/off scenarios.

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i was trying to help you understand that DCS is multithreaded and always has been. you said we were wrong and wanted to double down and argue...
I never said you were wrong and I'm not arguing. I said you were confusing terms and that's not what multithreading means in this context. We're talking about hardware multithreading and why for DCS and a lot of games it doesn't really make a difference. Hence you can save money buying the 9700K instead of the 9900K. I understand that DCS isn't a single threaded application. It definitely has more than one thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by etherbattx View Post
is NOT a trademark name for multithreading. it’s a hardware feature that allows some workloads (almost never games) go a little faster in very specialized scenarios. it has very little to do with multithreaded applications and for most discussions it can basically be ignored altogether.
From Intel's website:

"Intel® Hyper-Threading Technology (Intel® HT Technology) uses processor resources more efficiently, enabling multiple threads to run on each core...

Processors with both Intel® HT Technology and Intel® Turbo Boost Technology (or Intel® Turbo Boost Technology 2.0, available in Intel® Core™ i5 processors and above) deliver better performance and can complete tasks more quickly. The combination of technologies enables simultaneous processing of multiple threads, dynamically adapts to the workload, and automatically disables inactive cores. This increases processor frequency on the busy cores, giving an even greater performance boost for threaded applications."

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us...echnology.html

From wiki:

"Hyper-threading (officially called Hyper-Threading Technology or HT Technology and abbreviated as HTT or HT) is Intel's proprietary simultaneous multithreading (SMT) implementation used to improve parallelization of computations (doing multiple tasks at once) performed on x86 microprocessors." It also states farther down that the process is transparent to the OS but performance improvements are application dependent.

From HP's website:

"According to Intel [1], hyper-threading your cores can result in a 30% increase in performance and speed when comparing two identical PCs, with one CPU hyper-threaded. In a study published on Forbes, hyper-threading an AMD® processor (Ryzen 5 1600) showed a 17% increase in overall processing performance [2].
Despite these results, hyper-threading your cores isn’t always the go-to solution. There will be tasks in which the speed of your processor does not increase despite hyper-threading. This is due in part to the fact that not all applications and strings of data can efficiently load into a multi-thread core.
In an experiment carried out by bit-tech.net, a hyper-threaded Intel i7 Core was compared to a single thread Intel i7 Core after being put through a few different tests [3]. When it came to image editing, multitasking, and power consumption, the hyper-threaded counterpart did worse than the single thread. However, it performed the same or better when it came to Handbrake Video Encoding, the Overall Custom PC Benchmark Score, and playing the popular game Crysis.
Hyper-threading the cores in your CPU improves performance and speed on a case by case basis depending on which tasks are compatible with a hyper-threaded core."

https://store.hp.com/us/en/tech-take...thing-to-know#!

I'm just going by what these websites say but if you want to only use multithreading in the software sense that's fine. And according to my tests it only seems to help when restricted to 2 cores. So if you are playing on a 2 core machine that is HT capable I would keep it on but as always YMMV from other variables.
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Last edited by Sn8ke_iis; 01-14-2020 at 06:45 AM. Reason: fixed duplicate link
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