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Old 01-12-2020, 10:47 PM   #51
Sn8ke_iis
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Originally Posted by sobek View Post
That's exactly what multithreading means. Hyperthreading is something different entirely as other users have explained.
Hyperthreading is just Intel's trademark name for CPU multithreading. AMD calls theirs simultaneous multithreading (SMT) which I don't believe is trademarked.

If you are using the term multithreading in the software sense only, sure DCS is software multithreaded. But we already knew that because DCS uses more than one core.

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The reason why you are seeing no FPS difference in DCS by using hyperthreading is that the core thread singlehandedly saturates one CPU and that is your FPS cap. All the other threads use so little CPU that you can probably fit them into another core. If you were on a single core CPU with hyperthreading, you would see a difference.

If you have more than one physical core, hyperthreading does nothing for DCS because the load is spread too unevenly over its threads.
I'm pretty sure DCS would just crash or not load if you actually tried to run it on a single core CPU regardless of whether HT was enabled or not. DCS uses 2 cores.

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Old 01-12-2020, 11:01 PM   #52
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Youtube's algorithm popped up this video on my feed last night. It's from last July so there have been a lot of BIOS updates since then and focuses only on the 3900X and the 9900K.

His results were much closer for the games he tested. One that struck me in particular was Counterstrike:GO where the 3900X did beat the 9900K in 1080p outside the typical variance and margin of error.

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Old 01-13-2020, 04:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by rinkerbuck View Post
oh my god this shit is confusing. All we really need to know is Intel and AMD both make a lot of great processors and at the high end they are very close in performance so you can't really go wrong with either.
Hyper-threading is great, but i think that physical cores are better than logical cores. My point is,,, your cpu will be obsolete before that Vulcan come in life in DCS. Speed is the key.

In a Hyper-threading situation, when 2 thread share the same core, and one of the threads is heavy, this thread will be slow down to work on the other one who already wait.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:53 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
If you are using the term multithreading in the software sense only, sure DCS is software multithreaded. But we already knew that because DCS uses more than one core.

That is how that term is usually used. I've been a programmer for 7 years now and nobody in the industry uses the terms like you do.


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Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
I'm pretty sure DCS would just crash or not load if you actually tried to run it on a single core CPU regardless of whether HT was enabled or not. DCS uses 2 cores.
That is a misconception. Just because an application is mutlithreaded doesn't mean that it needs a minimum number of cores to run. The operating system will manage the scheduling of threads even if there's only one core. You can test this by assigning all threads of DCS to one core. Performance will be abysmal but it's unlikely it would crash.



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In case of the CPU, the requirement is for performance reasons. An application won't crash just because it doesn't have a second CPU core to run on (unless it is very poorly designed, which is not the case for DCS).
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Old 01-13-2020, 10:37 AM   #55
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That is how that term is usually used. I've been a programmer for 7 years now and nobody in the industry uses the terms like you do...
DCS does not use CPU multi-threading. That is what Intel and AMD call it as well as the definitions I've linked to. The OP's question was in relation to "Intel or AMD". I correctly stated that Intel's 9700 and DCS do not use multithreading. This is why there is no advantage to buying a 9900K or a 12 core 3900X just for DCS unless you just have to have the the highest single core IPC. This could potentially get you a few frames in VR, but given that for TrackIR you have to lock to 60 or 120 fps to keep the frametime smooth I'm not sure what it would get you other than being able to turn up some settings like draw distance or shadows.

We already knew DCS has more than one thread. No one in this forum thread has said otherwise. The prefix multi simply means more than one. So by that rationale this forum is multithreaded too.

I tried running DCS on one core. Windows boots but painfully slowly, and DCS does run but you wouldn't want to play it. It's a slide show on 1080p low.

This is Intel's product description of the 9700K:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us.../i7-9700k.html

In the description it says that it is 8 cores and 8 threads. How can a CPU have a thread unless they are referring to hardware threads?

This is from the wiki definition for SMT:

"Simultaneous multithreading is a technique for improving the overall efficiency of superscalar CPUs with hardware multithreading."

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...tion,5762.html

"Simultaneous multithreading, abbreviated as SMT, is the process of a CPU splitting each of its physical cores into virtual cores, which are known as threads. This is done in order to increase performance and allow each core to run two instruction streams at once.

Intel branded this process as hyper-threading, but hyper-threading is the same thing as simultaneous multithreading. For example, AMD CPUs with four cores use simultaneous multithreading to provide eight threads, and most Intel CPUs with two cores use hyper-threading to provide four threads."

So obviously I am not the only one who uses that term. I used to work in IT myself but I don't think anybody really cares.

It's common in benchmarking videos to refer to cores and threads for example in the case of the 9900K as 8C/16T. That is the established convention so that's why I'm using the term in that sense. If you guys want to use the term exclusively in the software sense that's fine.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:04 AM   #56
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In the description it says that it is 8 cores and 8 threads. How can a CPU have a thread unless they are referring to hardware threads?

The CPU doesn't "have" a thread, the number simply states how many it can process quasi simultaneously.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:13 AM   #57
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From my understanding, the big difference is that real cores, like 9700k, each have their own L1+L2 Cache whereas 2 threads via SMT/HT share the Cache along with only 1 can work while the other has to wait, maybe due to that Cache thing. But I might be wrong, I do not consider myself an expert when it comes to the guts and blood of a CPU and how they work.

When I look at a PC's interior I always wonder how this all works, HAHAHA. Thousands of solder spots, millions and billions of Transistors and only ONE has to go haywire and the whole show stops...plus the stupid software that bugs.

IRL, with TiR and 60 locked fps, it becomes questionable if you need the best IPC and highest clocks. A 8700k, 8600k, R5-3600 will all get you there, rather get 32GB and2 SSDs over 1 9900k, 16GB and 1 512GB SSD in my personal view.

BTW, got an Aorus Ultra + 3800X + 5700XT inbound for a friend, we will test DCS a little bit, sadly only 16GB 3200-14-14-14-34 made for AMD/Ballistix but I will get a clue what I was talking about the last few months, LoL.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:54 AM   #58
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This guy explains it really well for those that are confused by all this. He uses a simple program that calculates prime numbers on a single core Raspberry Pi and a 4 core PC. It shows why a monitoring program like Afterburner will show percentage utilization bouncing around from core to core and higher single core utilization while still showing lower utilization for the whole CPU.



And this is a great explanation of Hyperthreading (hardware multithreading) which DCS does not do currently and why a 9700K will get you the same approximate performance as a 9900K in DCS.

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Old 01-13-2020, 12:38 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sn8ke_iis View Post
And this is a great explanation of Hyperthreading (hardware multithreading) which DCS does not do currently

Applications don't "do Hyperthreading". On application level, you don't care about that at all. It's all abstract to you. If Hyperthreading is enabled, the operating system sees a higher number of cores available, everything else is handled by the much lower level drivers/firmware.
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:52 PM   #60
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Applications don't "do Hyperthreading". On application level, you don't care about that at all. It's all abstract to you. If Hyperthreading is enabled, the operating system sees a higher number of cores available, everything else is handled by the much lower level drivers/firmware.
The OS sees a higher number of logical cores, not physical cores. There's nothing abstract about it, it's very straightforward. If you buy a CPU with Hyperthreading, DCS won't utilize the logical cores effectively as it's not currently implemented in DCS. Hopefully with the Vulkan API it will. But they have to convert 4.3 million lines of code so it's probably going to take awhile.

You can easily test this yourself by disabling and enabling HT in BIOS and you will see no significant performance difference. The developers can confirm this as well.

It's also likely you can overclock to a higher stable clockspeed with less voltage with hyperthreading disabled. But there's variance in clockspeeds and voltage from chip to chip.
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