Dudikoff Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) In any event, why would they contemplate something if it does not directly benefit them? We can all be sure that they would not have implemented this new system if it was not in their best interest doing so. Would be shooting themselves in the foot otherwise and I am certain that they are wiser than that. Would you intentionally shoot yourself in the foot? Sorry, but this is no argument. It's pretty obvious they're doing it for their own benefit (like e.g. increased profit margins for the sake of the argument), but it doesn't mean that it will be to the benefit of the consumer or even that it will be in their own best interest in the long run. For example, EA just recently shot itself in the foot with the SW BF2 loot boxes even though they didn't expect to. Edited November 30, 2017 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 30, 2017 ED Team Share Posted November 30, 2017 By NOT telling people about this in the pre-purchase period it seems kinda dodgy behaviour, surely this change would have been discussed at length before just dropping it on us the day of a modules release Is it because it might have effected sales of that module ? I agree with Dudikoff, changing the goal posts after we have paid money in good faith is bad for ED's reputation and coming so soon after Matts heartfelt outpooring as well , makes me sad Improvements to the game are submitted all the time, saying it is dodgy is a bit of a stretch, this is an improvement over the old system. How exactly will this effect you personally on this? Or are you just making noise? I need constructive feedback if you want something change, if not it just feels like rattling the can for no reason. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epoch Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 @ED I'm moving later next year and expect to be without internet connectivity for 4-6 months until the village actually gets a connection. Possibly longer. I understand there is a possibility other modules will migrate to this new DRM solution. Having spent over £700 on DCS modules (and much more on related hardware) please confirm that I will still be able to enjoy them during my time away from civilisation. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 .....but it doesn't mean that it will be to the benefit of the consumer or even that it will be in their own best interest in the long run..... They already listed the benefits to the consumers. So yes, at present it benefits both themselves and their consumers better than the present system, obviously. Why else change? One does not change for the worse. As far as the long run is concerned, well, yes, one can only make a judgement call on information that is currently on hand. If it turns out to not be in their best interests in the long run then it will obviously be revisited and changed for the better. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saruman Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Many of you, defending this choice, are prone to forget the word "freedom". I (I write "I" only because it's more comfortable, but I obviously mean the common John Doe person) am free to live without being obliged to pay for an Internet subscription at home; I am free to move to a foreign country or to an holiday house, without being obliged to subscribe another Internet subscription, apart from the one I have at my main home; etc. Above all, I am (John Doe is) free to use a product I paid money for HOW, WHEN and WHERE I want, without any tie and trap, and that means that, after my purchase, I have every right to use the product I bought without being subject to any unreasonable condition that could limit the aforementioned freedom (in this circumstance, for example, I/John Doe should have the right to play in singleplayer HOW, WHEN and WHERE I want, after the company verifies, once and for all, the legitimacy of my purchase). ED's choice could be understandable, if looked at the declared purpose to protect ED's intellectual property (and every legit user of ED's products) from piracy. But I guess ED's tech staff is smart enough to know that piracy, for a long time, will be able to reproduce and share, without authorization, every software that gaming industry will produce in the next few years, at least until new modern anti-piracy technologies will be designed (and the so-called "phoning at home" is not new nor efficient, being indeed a pretty laughable measure to circumvent for every pirate crew). For this reason, though ED's declared purpose is naturally commendable, the method is poorly thought. It only limits the freedom of the legit users and actually transforms their full purchases into simple limited rentals. Something that in many USA/EU courts would not be accepted, even if user should accept the EULA by clicking on a button labelled "Accept" (the majority of EULA's clauses, in fact, are usually declared invalid in courtrooms for multiple reasons I won't name here). Edited November 30, 2017 by Saruman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 @ED I'm moving later next year and expect to be without internet connectivity for 4-6 months until the village actually gets a connection. Possibly longer. I understand there is a possibility other modules will migrate to this new DRM solution. Having spent over £700 on DCS modules (and much more on related hardware) please confirm that I will still be able to enjoy them during my time away from civilisation. Thanks. If the village has cellular coverage and you have a cellular phone then you'll be fine. If not then you might have an issue. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 It only limits the freedom of the legit users and transforms their purchases into simple rentals. Your purchases have always been rentals. That's been the case for years and years and years. You never own the software - you merely purchase limited rights of use and enjoyment. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) They already listed the benefits to the consumers. So yes, at present it benefits both themselves and their consumers better than the present system, obviously. Why else change? One does not change for the worse. Sorry, would you please be so kind to list these benefits again for me as a regular (non-Steam) DCSW user? As I must have missed the memo. And again, they can change to a new system for any number of reasons (e.g. complications with generating updates, expensive licensing fees, whatever). Why do you keep arguing it has to be a better system for everyone involved when this is clearly not a given? Edited November 30, 2017 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sc_neo Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Just to be sure....is the steam version affected by this as well when you have it in offline mode? Or does steam DCS perform the same login and verification process after starting from the steam client? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Sorry, would you please be so kind to list these benefits again for me as a regular (non-Steam) DCSW user? As I must have missed the memo. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3304775&postcount=1 I'm sure TFC/ED will elaborate further if asked politely. Why do you keep arguing it has to be a better system for everyone? Common sense, coupled with the advantages already mentioned as above. Why would someone do something that would be worse in the long-run? I certainly would not. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feefifofum Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) ;) Pirates always find a way...I feel that this solution is little more than an inconvenience for people who were planning on stealing from ED. Once every X days, everyone logs in to their communal account, then disconnects or blocks DCS's internet access by firewall once the authentication has been completed. Meanwhile, this new system is extremely harmful to those customers who may be without regular internet access for whatever reason. I urge you to consider that just because you have easy internet access at all times wherever you might be, the entirety of the world does not have that luxury. See some of our other posters with some excellent reasons for not being able to connect for weeks at a stretch. I'm not trying to be confrontational, or nasty, but I feel that completely locking paying customers out of the software they could have potentially upwards of $1000 invested in is not the best choice. I hope ED can find a solution that protects their work without harming paying customers. Edited November 30, 2017 by feefifofum 3 THE GEORGIAN WAR - OFFICIAL F-15C DLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3304775&postcount=1 I'm sure TFC/ED will elaborate further if asked politely. Common sense, coupled with the advantages already mentioned as above. Why would someone do something that would be worse in the long-run? I certainly would not. OK, look, here's the problem. I have a genuine concern about this as these changes bring potential inconvenience to me as a DCS user. And you as a non-ED employee are just repeating the same wishful thinking over and over which is not really addressing my concerns as I don't see any arguments there. So, let's just agree to disagree and I hope ED will listen to our concerns and devise some solution which would be more convenient for their concerned customers as well. Edited November 30, 2017 by Dudikoff 2 i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester986 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 +1 feefifofum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I have a genuine concern about this as these changes bring potential inconvenience to me as a DCS user. Apart from your earlier statement about it 'Not being fair', is there any other genuine concerns that you have that will better aid TFC/ED in arriving at a decision that will benefit the majority of their consumer base and indeed themselves? We need to adequately list our concerns for discussions. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellfire257 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I missed you, Viper. It's good to have a more balanced discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sc_neo Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Do the verification when shipping updates and let the god damn pirates be stuck on an old version if they can crack the initial verified module and have their pirate provider friends work their asses off every two weeks when a new patch is being released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Apart from your earlier statement about it 'Not being fair', is there any other genuine concerns that you have that will better aid TFC/ED in arriving at a decision that will benefit the majority of their consumer base and indeed themselves? We need to adequately list our concerns for discussions. I already have. 2nd line. Edited November 30, 2017 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saruman Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Your purchases have always been rentals. That's been the case for years and years and years. You never own the software - you merely purchase limited rights of use and enjoyment.Right to enjoy it how, when and where the user wants without any further condition like being obliged to be online now and then. ED's choice would fall in any courtroom, except Eastern ones maybe. Even Steam/Valve had to change its mind about offline play (in early days, it wasn't possible), after being charged by class actions (and yes, they changed the EULA so that the user could not propose any further action, but it's an evident invalid clause every judge would demolish in no more than 5 written rows) Inviato dal mio Nexus 5 utilizzando Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 30, 2017 ED Team Share Posted November 30, 2017 I'm not trying to be confrontational, or nasty, but I feel that completely locking paying customers out of the software they could have potentially upwards of $1000 invested in is not the best choice. I hope ED can find a solution that protects their work without harming paying customers. You say you are not being confrontational, then you make a confrontational comment falsely accusing ED of something they are not doing. You are not being locked out of your software. You are being verified of owning it. Similar to Starforce. It's protection for ED and even for us. There could be a few special cases where this wont work well for them, ED will have to figure that out. But making a global statement that this is somehow locking us all from our software is silly. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellfire257 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 So, what is it when I can't access what I've paid for because I don't have an internet connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester986 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I'd like to point out that people who are away from imternet for prolomged periods of time probably aren't able to or choise to participate in forums... So its obviously going to skew against those of us with that problem. Only for them to discover the problem the next time they are able to update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I already have. 2nd line. Are you stating that your concern is that they should have announced this earlier? It might not have been ready to announce any earlier than what it was for whatever reason. Or have I misunderstood? Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Rico Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 You say you are not being confrontational, then you make a confrontational comment falsely accusing ED of something they are not doing. You are not being locked out of your software. You are being verified of owning it. Similar to Starforce. It's protection for ED and even for us. There could be a few special cases where this wont work well for them, ED will have to figure that out. But making a global statement that this is somehow locking us all from our software is silly. Cannot believe what I am about to do , defend starforce Starforce asks you once at activation The new system asks you every 4 days then disables your software if it cannot phone home 1 METAR weather for DCS World missions Guide to help out new DCS MOOSE Users -> HERE Havoc Company Dedicated server info Connect IP: 94.23.215.203 SRS enabled - freqs - Main = 243, A2A = 244, A2G = 245 Please contact me HERE if you have any server feedback or METAR issues/requests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 30, 2017 ED Team Share Posted November 30, 2017 So, what is it when I can't access what I've paid for because I don't have an internet connection? How often does that happen? You seem to be on the internet right now? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudikoff Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Are you stating that your concern is that they should have announced this earlier? It might not have been ready to announce any earlier than what it was for whatever reason. Or have I misunderstood? "I certainly don't want to have a situation where I want to play DCS but either my internet connection is down for some reason or the ED server is down, however uncommon those situations might be." So, I don't have this problem now with StarForce, but this is going to change while being presented as something done to my benefit. And yes, as I work online, I've certainly had my share of annoying prolonged Internet or server dropouts which is why this announcement fills me with discomfort. Edited November 30, 2017 by Dudikoff i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg. DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?). Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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