DCS: Me 262 Discussion (Development on hold currently)

I don't think random system failures as they are in DCS right now are a good implementation because when I tried them they felt truly random and took me completely out of the game way too often to be realistic or even fun.

The problem I see is that there is no consistency in DCS. I mean the basic system is in place but it's not carried over to the next mission. We can already wreck an engine very quickly if we handle it wrong. A single system failure can lead to a cascade of failures etc.

It's just that when you add random system failures to it, it feels like you're in a very badly maintained aircraft.

If we get a logbook that tracks our flight hours, the way we treated the aircraft, accidents, damage and have a little graphical overlay to do maintenance (and yes, I realize this is not fun for everyone) I'd be all over it but random system failures as they are now are a deal breaker for me because there is no reason for that failure other than that you have random failures activated. And that to me is worse than flying a factory new aircraft that has been build to perfection.

Maybe something like the FSX addon A2A's Maintenance hanger for aircraft? Where when you pull up ground repair it shows exactly what broke. Leaking oil or just a bad cylinder etc... showing what component (s) caused the aircraft to stop working. Then there would also be varying damage repair times 1-3 minutes (MAX) depending on how minor or major a damage to the engine was.

Maybe someday we could have something like this...

Hard to imagine that working for MP. You could just pick a new machine instead anyway.

Well if DCS ever gets a Dynamic Campaign system you'd have a limited amount of resources aircraft and etc. (presumably still set by the mission editors but at least it'd add some value to your aircraft)

like I said, having a system like that would be nice but very unlikely... It'd be really cool if your engines acted the same way they did when you shut them off the next time you hoped in again. I would assume it'd be a lot more important in older aircraft like the Me262.

It'd be really cool if your engines acted the same way they did when you shut them off the next time you hoped in again. I would assume it'd be a lot more important in older aircraft like the Me262.

As Franz Stigler put it: "It won't always kill you. It will kill the next guy." (About the 262 in reference to fan blades cracking after engine cool down on the ground when he briefed his fellow pilots in JV44 about the plane.)

Another thought on the 262: will official Luftwaffe flight manuals be of any real use for the 262? One thing is how the engineers wanted it to work and how the plane worked in theory. But from what I have read about first hand encounters with the 262, the reality was kind of different. According to Stigler, Steinhoff instructed pilots about go-arounds when missing an approach. Or more precise, that there was no way you could throttle up quickly and give it another shot. When on final approach the pilot had to commit, stick with it and try to land since moving throttle quickly would be suicide. Again because of the Jumo 004's tendency to snuff out.

As Franz Stigler put it: "It won't always kill you. It will kill the next guy." (About the 262 in reference to fan blades cracking after engine cool down on the ground when he briefed his fellow pilots in JV44 about the plane.)

 

Another thought on the 262: will official Luftwaffe flight manuals be of any real use for the 262? One thing is how the engineers wanted it to work and how the plane worked in theory. But from what I have read about first hand encounters with the 262, the reality was kind of different. According to Stigler, Steinhoff instructed pilots about go-arounds when missing an approach. Or more precise, that there was no way you could throttle up quickly and give it another shot. When on final approach the pilot had to commit, stick with it and try to land since moving throttle quickly would be suicide. Again because of the Jumo 004's tendency to snuff out.

The manuals were written based on actual airplane characteristics, not theory. So yes they are of as much use as the manuals for any other aircraft.

Also let's keep in mind that in DCS we always get a perfect factory fresh example of the aircraft, thus this shouldnt be any different for the Me262, esp. as there were well built examples of this aircraft as well.

The manuals were written based on actual airplane characteristics, not theory. So yes they are of as much use as the manuals for any other aircraft.

 

Also let's keep in mind that in DCS we always get a perfect factory fresh example of the aircraft, thus this shouldnt be any different for the Me262, esp. as there were well built examples of this aircraft as well.

Most JV44's 262's were "factory fresh" since the pilots brought their "own planes" to the cirkus. Stigler actually stole his first plane straight from the Messerschmitt plant... A Jumo 004 lasted 28 hours + another 10 after refurbishment so "factory fresh" is a pretty relative term here. Especially if you set the scenario to March or April 1945 when most of the famous 262 flights took place. My concern is that our 262's will be little too fresh...

I still think the 262 will be pretty challenging to portray correctly in a sim like DCS. If you read what the actual 262 pilots have said about the plane there is one thing that keeps coming back: The 262 was a very dangerous plane to fly. And given the political climate in Germany at the time (most pilots in JV44 including Galland, Steinhoff, Trautloft and many others were put there because their chance of survival was minimal. It was better to have them die as heroes than having them killed by firing squad as probably Göring and others wanted) I'm pretty sure any problems that could possibly be lethal with the Me 262 wouldn't be mentioned in official manuals.

Personally I think it would be amazing if the DCS 262 would be just as hazardous as the real plane was. :pilotfly:

Most JV44's 262's were "factory fresh" since the pilots brought their "own planes" to the cirkus. Stigler actually stole his first plane straight from the Messerschmitt plant... A Jumo 004 lasted 28 hours + another 10 after refurbishment so "factory fresh" is a pretty relative term here. Especially if you set the scenario to March or April 1945 when most of the famous 262 flights took place. My concern is that our 262's will be little too fresh...

The Me262 was initially a very dangerous plane to fly because of its engines, but things improved in December 1944 after the first batches of Jumo 004B-4's arrived on the scene. These had an improved average TBO of 50 hours as apposed to the 10-25 hours of the B1 and B2 engines thanks to another redesign of the fan blades, and the automatic throttle regulator did a lot to avoid flame outs and overheating.

For example Eric "Wrinkle" Brown the Chief RAF test pilot did many flights in an already operationally used Me262 without incident, reaching 900 km/h during level flight speed tests, everything going smooth. Being just after the war this was most likely a type equipped with the B4 engines.

I still think the 262 will be pretty challenging to portray correctly in a sim like DCS. If you read what the actual 262 pilots have said about the plane there is one thing that keeps coming back: The 262 was a very dangerous plane to fly. And given the political climate in Germany at the time (most pilots in JV44 including Galland, Steinhoff, Trautloft and many others were put there because their chance of survival was minimal. It was better to have them die as heroes than having them killed by firing squad as probably Göring and others wanted) I'm pretty sure any problems that could possibly be lethal with the Me 262 wouldn't be mentioned in official manuals.

You can be 100% certain that any limitations or dangerous aspects of the aircraft would be mentioned in the manuals, and they were and in great detail as well. Anything else is a rather silly idea, esp. considering how badly Germany needed trained pilots at that point, they litterally did everything they could to give them the highest chances of survival possible = hence the emphasis on increasing armour protection as well as pioneering development of ejection seats.

If there's anything the LW wanted to avoid it was losing its pilots, airplanes it actually had enough of, the problem was finding someone to fly them properly as well as something to fly them with (fuel/oil).

Personally I think it would be amazing if the DCS 262 would be just as hazardous as the real plane was. :pilotfly:

Personally I won't be flying one for 50 hours straight, so it shouldn't be very hazardous for me ;)

Perhaps JG7 got better planes and engines than JV44 then... As for wanting their pilots to stay alive, that was probably true for every pilot unless they were part of Gallands inner circle of fighter aces. They and Göring had a mutual hate for eachother.

Can anyone recommend any reading about war time 262 fighter training? I have read about Buchner and Stiglers training but that was very short and mostly took place in twin prop planes or mockups as far as I can tell. It would be interesting to know more.

Simulating the strategic blockade of Germany in the DCS Me-262 is a bit much for me. I just want to fly the plane.:pilotfly:

Simulating the strategic blockade of Germany in the DCS Me-262 is a bit much for me. I just want to fly the plane.:pilotfly:

That's a big 10-4 brother! :thumbup:

As far as I know, thrust was not only determined by rpm but also by the position of the 'onion' in the exhaust. I wonder if in later versions of the 004 the automatic regulator as mentioned above also controlled the 'onion', so that you could control thrust at higher altitudes to a certain extent without fear of a flameout?

Any news?

Any news?

Er, yes? It'll use the Jumo engines.

Wow ^^

As issues they have hard data on they should be able to put in the FMadvailures from longer periods of use are pretty hard to do as we have a fresh aircraft every time we fly, it doesn't track how many hours we have on one airframe and effect it in anyway, that is where scripting would have to come into play, and it would be more random than anything.

I've heard that there was also a problem with too rapid throttle advancment could result in engine failure and fire. I wonder how big of an issue that really was. Me 262 has a potential to be very interesting.

I've heard that there was also a problem with too rapid throttle advancment could result in engine failure and fire. I wonder how big of an issue that really was. Me 262 has a potential to be very interesting.

The first Jumo 004 series had no fuel governor so the throttle position directly controlled fuel injection. So the pilot would have to be careful not to advance the throttle too far for the current engine RPM. I don't know what kinds of interesting failures these could bring about, but just one would be to cause a flame-out which in turn causes the fuel to be blown out the turbine unburned I guess. On the ground it could pool in the rear of the engine and catch fire.

Later 004 series would automatically limit the fuel injection, but I don't remember how much service they have seen in the 262.

I've heard that there was also a problem with too rapid throttle advancment could result in engine failure and fire. I wonder how big of an issue that really was. Me 262 has a potential to be very interesting.

I don't know if this was solved very late in the war or not.But you couldn't push the throttle brutally forward because you would destroy the engine.Also the acceleration was very poor.You could fly very fast but you couldn't accelerate from low speed fast at all.

Late war (Dec '44??) there was a controller that fixed the problem. Don't know how well it worked.

By December 1944 the first batches of the improved B-4 engines equipped with the automatic throttle governor saw service on Me262's. These pretty much eliminated issues with flame outs during flight, the only "reliable" way to get a flame out after that was if when the aircraft was standing still you litterally pushed the throttle from idle to full power in a split second - but this was a limitation of most early jet engines anyway.