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AV-8B Harrier Thread


Angelthunder

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Let's say it is crucial to follow the numbers, as mentioned in the

And as a helicopter junky I now perfectly understand why the heli-pilots transitioning to the early AV-8As had such a high toll...

Let's say it is not helpful when you land and want to slam the Collective, erh, Throttle down, ehm, forward... ;)

 

Do you normally have collective down as throttle forward or back?

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Do you normally have collective down as throttle forward or back?
In helicopters as collective down (decrease lift) and in a jet as throttle forward as you would expect in the real world counterparts. So muscle memory for a hover is counterproductive for the AV-8B... "Ouch-time!" ;)

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I just hope it ships during the Thanksgiving week. (I've that whole week off, and would be perfect to go crazy on the Harrier). :-)

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I just hope someone maps out the controls on the warthog throttle and stick before it arrives !

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Even though I am probably going to be acting as a third party QA dept for it, I pre-purchased too :-P (I want to help make all the things better if possible, cant help it, I code for a living), really great production value on the video! I am hoping something special on release due to the harrier video being shot ENTIRELY in 2.5 lol

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So is it probable that we will see more videos within the next month as part of their marketing strategy to drive pre-purchase?

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So is it probable that we will see more videos within the next month as part of their marketing strategy to drive pre-purchase?
Hope so:)

 

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In a month we will have our first full fidelity SEAD aircraft, and one that will be far superior to the -25T in many ways. I am excited just because of that. This will give us all kinds of new mission idea's throughout all of DCS. The Night Attack can really be a capable SEAD/DEAD platform, a platform perfect for operating alongside helicopters

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Having the AGM-122 missile doesn't make the Harrier a SEAD aircraft. It really doesn't IMO. AGM-122 is very limited, in terms of range and operational capabilities. AGM-65 can be more effective depending on the situation.
Does the laser Maverick have a greater range or is the laser lock similar to that of the IR ones?

 

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Having the AGM-122 missile doesn't make the Harrier a SEAD aircraft. It really doesn't IMO. AGM-122 is very limited, in terms of range and operational capabilities. AGM-65 can be more effective depending on the situation.

 

What is and what isn't a SEAD aircraft is an opinion, when I think of SEAD and DEAD I think of what Dan Hampton wrote in his excellent book, Viper Pilot ( a must read about modern SEAD/DEAD missions). SEAD/DEAD is much more than just shooting off HARM's (in this case Sidearms's), most of his missions involve using just GP bombs, AGM-65 and the gun.

 

Is the Harrier (particularly the Night Attack) an outstanding SEAD platform? IMO, no not really. I think the Hornet and Viper are superior SEAD/DEAD platforms, and that's why the Harrier is not used as a SEAD/DEAD platform today. But, it is by far the most capable aircraft of SEAD/DEAD that we will have in DCS until the Hornet I think because of a few reasons. It is far superior to the A-10 in size, speed and overall maneuverability for a SEAD/DEAD missions. The A-10 is the only full fidelity "competitor" really, unless you are very good in the M2K. It has a big enough payload to accomplish a SEAD/DEAD mission, ARM capabilities, and plenty of sensors that can be used in assisting with the missions.

 

I agree that the AGM-122 is really a defensive weapon, though that doesn't mean in DCS that it has to be just that. It is fine for basic/defensive SEAD, were you just want a radar to be destroyed. It will work very well with the AGM-65 and Mk-82's to wipe out SAM sites/platforms. It does have a big advantage over the AGM-65 in that if you don't have a few seconds to try to pickle off a Maverick you can just shoot the Sidearm in bore sight mode. I know from using the A-10 in DCS against SA-8's how much of a pain it is trying to get a shot off before having to go defensive.

 

Think if your just flying escort to take out Mobile SAMs along with a strike package, or maybe even as a dedicated SEAD/DEAD platform, and one of the pesky Mobile SAM's pops up on the RWR ready to launch in a few seconds. You have no time to go searching with the Maverick, but with the Sidearm, just point it in the general area, wait for it to get a lock tone (that easy according to the Pocket Guide) and pickle. Now you can go defensive and know the threat is most likely disabled.

 

Not trying to say the Harrier is a perfect SEAD/Dead platform, but it is far better than anything we have so far in DCS


Edited by frixon28
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What is and what isn't a SEAD aircraft is an opinion, when I think of SEAD and DEAD I think of what Dan Hampton wrote in his excellent book, Viper Pilot ( a must read about modern SEAD/DEAD missions). SEAD/DEAD is much more than just shooting off HARM's (in this case Sidearms's), most of his missions involve using just GP bombs, AGM-65 and the gun.

 

 

 

Is the Harrier (particularly the Night Attack) an outstanding SEAD platform? IMO, no not really. I think the Hornet and Viper are superior SEAD/DEAD platforms, and that's why the Harrier is not used as a SEAD/DEAD platform today. But, it is by far the most capable aircraft of SEAD/DEAD that we will have in DCS until the Hornet I think because of a few reasons. It is far superior to the A-10 in size, speed and overall maneuverability for a SEAD/DEAD missions. The A-10 is the only full fidelity "competitor" really, unless you are very good in the M2K. It has a big enough payload to accomplish a SEAD/DEAD mission, ARM capabilities, and plenty of sensors that can be used in assisting with the missions.

 

 

 

I agree that the AGM-122 is really a defensive weapon, though that doesn't mean in DCS that it has to be just that. It is fine for basic/defensive SEAD, were you just want a radar to be destroyed. It will work very well with the AGM-65 and Mk-82's to wipe out SAM sites/platforms. It does have a big advantage over the AGM-65 in that if you don't have a few seconds to try to pickle off a Maverick you can just shoot the Sidearm in bore sight mode. I know from using the A-10 in DCS against SA-8's how much of a pain it is trying to get a shot off before having to go defensive.

 

 

 

Not trying to say the Harrier is a perfect SEAD/Dead platform, but it is far better than anything we have so far in DCS

 

 

 

Range is life in SEAD. In that regard the Su-25T is a far superior SEAD platform.

 

 

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Range is life in SEAD. In that regard the Su-25T is a far superior SEAD platform.

 

 

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The SU-25T has better ARM, that is when compared to the Harrier (perhaps if you want to count a larger payload that could count too). On every other aspect the Harrier is better. SEAD/DEAD is much more than just flying up, shooting off ARM and coming back down. You have to get close in DEAD, as close as to getting a Maverick off that is. While I don't see it happen much in DCS, IRL (particularly in Desert Storm and OIF) SAM crews would just turn off their radar's and the ARM would go haywire. That's when speed and maneuverability come into factor, you got to go find and kill the SAM. The ARM takes out the radar that is being used by the SAM, not the launchers. Thats what I think the Harrier will be great at, obliterating the darn SAM site, not just temporarily disabling it

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You know ARMs have memory and they can hit a SAM not moving that had just turned off the Radar?

 

Su-25T is by far much better SEAD-DEAD platform than the Harrier.

 

Longer Range ARM

Bigger Payload

Multiple ATG missiles ( 12 vs 4 )

Much less flight limits and restrictions ( i´m talking about real flight limits )

TWO ENGINES

Durable

 

The only field the Harrier is better ( and a very important one ) is Night Operations where the Su-25T is almost useless.

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Not trying to say the Harrier is a perfect SEAD/Dead platform, but it is far better than anything we have so far in DCS

 

Not sure if I agree. Yes, for DEAD it is arguable, as Harrier has access to more and better sensors, as well as fire and forget missiles.

 

But if we look at ARM capabilities:

- Harrier's missile is relatively puny when it comes to warhead

- It can carry only two, vs up to 6 in Su-25T's case

- The missile doesn't have an impressive range either

- Tinier seeker head probably is less versatile in terms of radars/frequencies it can track, but not sure if this will be modeled in this module.

- Using the Phantasmagoria, Su-25T has some means of picking a specific target among multiple emitters. With Sidearms, Harrier can point to general direction of enemy emitters, and hope for the best, it may pick up the tracking radar, or maybe a less threatening radar who seemed shinier at that particular moment.

 

With the arrival of the Hornet, it will be a no contest victory for Hornet and HARM combo, and even the F-4E + AGM-45 combo may end up being comparable to the AV-8B + AGM-122 combo.

 

But yes, for DEAD, Harrier will be pretty good: it has the sensors, nav/attack systems, defensive measures, speed and maneuvrability as well as good weapons to do the trick.

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You know ARMs have memory and they can hit a SAM not moving that had just turned off the Radar?

 

Su-25T is by far much better SEAD-DEAD platform than the Harrier.

 

Longer Range ARM

Bigger Payload

Multiple ATG missiles ( 12 vs 4 )

Much less flight limits and restrictions ( i´m talking about real flight limits )

TWO ENGINES

Durable

 

The only field the Harrier is better ( and a very important one ) is Night Operations where the Su-25T is almost useless.

 

And how reliable is the memory systems? How many HARM's were shot off in the last 30 years effectively? ARM's can be shot down also. This is why SAM sites are composed of multiple different systems of all types, (including those lame old schooled AAA). A radar is just a small part of a SAM site, something that can be replaced by the next day (as seen in the war's in Vietnam and Middle East). The SU-25T featured with the ATGM's or ARM turns into a fat whale, just wait until a SAM is shot at you. You are big vulnerable target, though yes you do have some armor to help. The Harrier is a much faster, more manueverable target, making much harder to it by AAA and SAMs. The Su-25T does have more flight time, though that does not mean much for a SEAD/DEAD mission, as the F-16 (similar combat radius to the Harrier) has proven. The Harrier has A-A refueling (something many mission planners don't put to use in DCS) and that is a HUGE advantage over the SU-25T in terms of range. While the SU-25T missiles are not bad against tanks, not having fire and forget capability's in an environment filled with SAM's and AAA and can be fatal, something the Harrier with it's Maverick's dont have to worry about. The SU-25T has two engines, good for it. The F-16 has proven that the amount of engines have nothing to do with being a good SEAD/DEAD platform. The goal in any aircraft, no matter what it is made of, is not to get shot and for SEAD/DEAD it really does not matter, once again proven by the "fragile" F-16.

 

So yes if you just want to take off, shoot off a couple of missiles from 20K feet, and land than good for you (not you personally but that mindset while performing SEAD/DEAD)! This is a real tactic that was used in Desert Storm, to not the greatest effect, because you are not destroying the SAM site at all! This is why in OIF, Weasels switched to DEAD missions, often not using the HARM at all and opting for Mavericks and GP Bombs, because you got to destroy the site not just the radar. The effects showed with the amount of aircraft lost to SAM's too.

 

With the Harrier Night Attack, the biggest point I was trying to make is that we finally have a full fidelity module capable of SEAD/DEAD (the first western aircraft also) which is a big deal to me personally and many other players. I just don't like FC3 Aircraft, too easy and arcade like for me IMO. It can perform the Weasel SEAD/DEAD role like the Phantom,Thud,F-16,Hornet and so many others did sucesfully. That's a big deal to me and I hope the AV-8B NA introduces the DCS community to Wild Weaseling (if you don't know what that it is please learn about it, it brings a completely new mindset to SEAD/DEAD). It gets me excited :)


Edited by frixon28
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Its very hard to keep arguing without writing a complete book but i will try to resume.

 

If you know well Desert Storm you will know that F-4G/HARM combo was the main ARM weapon in the first days, with SO MANY CONFIRMED kills that Irak IADS changed the air defence tactics to the point to keep almost every single SAM radar off almost all the time.

 

Range in the SEAD role is LIFE. And the longer the ARM range the better. All HARM launches in Desert Storm in the first days where launched at max distance and a lot of that as preventive launches ( HARM first, withot even a radar signal ). Choosing the best target taking in count the attacking force flight path, danger and envelope.

 

The Harrier CANT DO any of that. Long range ARM launches, select SAM targets, going ahead of a strike force to deny, destroy SAM sites. Beeing the last out protecting the strike egress.

 

Another important thing. The Harrier has A LOT OF FLIGHT LIMITATIONS. Just read the manuals. Is very maneuverable, but no so much as you think, even less with a decent payload.

 

The Su-25T is as fast as the Harrier and much more forgiving in flight.

 

And last. In Desert Storm SEAD operations from the F-4G was just that, loiter for a HARM shoot at 25.000 feet ahead of a strike flight and defending the egress, no other weapon, only fuel, ECM, sparrows and HARMs. Something the Harrier cant do at all.

 

DEAD?

 

Again, in a field with the SAM radar menace supressed by specialists like the F-4G in Desert Storm, DEAD missions for the Harrier, yes of course. SEAD missions in the Harrier, not even close to possible in an average enemy IADS situation.

 

On a side note i´m in love with the Harrier and i´m going to do everything i know i cant do in real life with the Harrier inside DCS because is just fun.


Edited by Esac_mirmidon
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Its very hard to keep arguing without writing a complete book but i will try to resume.

 

If you know well Desert Storm you will know that F-4G/HARM combo was the main ARM weapon in the first days, with SO MANY CONFIRMED kills that Irak IADS changed the air defence tactics to the point to keep almost every single SAM radar off almost all the time.

 

Range in the SEAD role is LIFE. And the longer the ARM range the better. All HARM launches in Desert Storm in the first days where launched at max distance and a lot of that as preventive launches ( HARM first, withot even a radar signal ). Choosing the best target taking in count the attacking force flight path, danger and envelope.

 

The Harrier CANT DO any of that. Long range ARM launches, select SAM targets, going ahead of a strike force to deny, destroy SAM sites. Beeing the last out protecting the strike egress.

 

Another important thing. The Harrier has A LOT OF FLIGHT LIMITATIONS. Just read the manuals. Is very maneuverable, but no so much as you think, even less with a decent payload.

 

The Su-25T is as fast as the Harrier and much more forgiving in flight.

 

And last. In Desert Storm SEAD operations from the F-4G was just that, loiter for a HARM shoot at 25.000 feet ahead of a strike flight and defending the egress, no other weapon, only fuel, ECM, sidewinders and HARMs. Something the Harrier cant do at all.

 

DEAD?

 

Again, in a field with the SAM radar menace supressed by specialists like the F-4G in Desert Storm, DEAD missions for the Harrier, yes of course. SEAD missions in the Harrier, not even close to possible in a average enemy IADS situation.

 

On a side note i´m in love with the Harrier and i´m going to do everything i know i cant do in real life with the Harrier inside DCS because is just fun.

 

It is also very hard to keep this up without writing a book, but I will also continue.

 

]First off your completely missing my point. Not trying to be obnoxious, but I will bold and underline this next statement for everyone to understand. This is the first full fidelity module, and the first western aircraft, capable of performing SEAD/DEAD, performing the later very well. This is very exciting to me, and I believe many other players. The AV-8B NA is not the best SEAD/DEAD platform, but it is capable of it, and that's great news for the DCS community!

Back to history, yes HARMS were used somewhat successfully in Desert Storm. However they were not killing the SAM sites itself, just the radars. The Iraq's could/did replace the radar on the next day. This was a huge problem and why so many coalition aircraft were lost to SAM's. SAM sites previously thought disabled could pop up the next day with a new radar. This is why in 2003, the US Coalition focused on DEAD missions instead. I trust real F-16 Wild Weasel pilots telling me about how the HARMs aren't flying death rods, and the important of using bombs and mavericks and even your gun to destroy SAM's. SAM operators aren't like they are in DCS sometimes, with their radar just turned on the entire time. As seen in every war since Vietnam, they wait for opportune moments, before turning on the radar and shooting, and quickly turning off again. HARM's and any ARM aren't just laser beams, they play and important role, but are given way too much credit. That or I was just listening to some highly biased F-16 Wild Weasel Pilots.

 

In DCS we are fortune to have large mountains and terrain that fills us with cover, so yes we can fly in front of the strike package to draw the attention of SAM's, do some old school wild weaseling while the strikers are doing their thing, and get out. It can select SAMS it wants to attack, its just inferior to anything that has better systems. Same tactic worked pretty well in Vietnam and OIF, and they didn't rely on just shooting off HARM's for everything. In Desert Storm the F-4G's worked pair in pairs mostly with F-16's , the F-4G's usually carrying the HARM, the F-16 carrying CBU's or other bombs. Like I said this also all comes from first hand accounts by Wild Weasel Pilot's.

 

No doubt that the Harrier has its limits, something no matter what were using it for in DCS we will have to learn. It really is a freak of an aircraft, but a good freak :thumbup:. But come on we all know that when it comes to speed and maneuverability the Harrier is no slouch, and is far better than the whale that is the SU-25T, or the A-10C for that matter. This is what will the AV-8B NA will have as an advantage over the other in game CAS/Ground Attack platforms that are playable in the game so far.

 

The argument goes back to SEAD vs DEAD, suppress vs destroy. The Harrier is just part of this equation, just like any other aircraft, and how you make the most out is up to the virtual pilot. Other than in Desert Storm (where we focused on just suppressing, and not destroying the sites), the focus has always been killing those pesky SAM's, so that is what I will be doing in my AV-8B NA mostly, that is if I don't lag out into the ground anymore :(

 

This is a good thing to further debate in another thread, I fear the moderators will soon be knocking on ether of our virtual doors :music_whistling: for talking to much about history.

 

The AGM-122 Sidearm on the AV-8B NA, no matter its effectiveness compared to other systems, will be a useful tool and is a great addition to DCS by RAZBAM!


Edited by frixon28
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Desert Storm losses BY FAR where made by AAA and IR missiles. Radar SAM losses where the few. ( Thansk to the F-4G and Navy-Marines aviators )

 

Where the Harrier excels, and was designed for is CAS, its the real place for the Harrier with his brother in law, the Warthog.

 

I wish you the best luck going SEAD with the Harrier.

 

A good read for you about SEAD in Desert Storm

 

magnum-the-wild-weasels-in-desert-storm_cr.jpg


Edited by Esac_mirmidon

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Desert Storm losses BY FAR where made by AAA and IR missiles. Radar SAM losses where the few.

 

I wish you the best luck going SEAD with the Harrier.

 

A good read for you about SEAD in Desert Storm

 

Best of luck to you too.

 

Good read on the differences between SEAD and DEAD, along with operations in Desert Storm, Kosovo and OIF. Gets you into the mindset along with a historical read about what and who the Wild Weasels are.

 

13623911.jpg

 

 

 

Should also help anyone trying to also use the Harrier in the DEAD role, or any aircraft for that matter. Also a lot of the threats in the books are the MANPADS, and AAA that are incorporated into the SAM site. Night Attack DEAD in the Harrier sounds pretty awesome, scary, way to hard for me.

 

 

Anyway has there ever been any pictures released by RAZBAM of the NVG in the AV-8B NA? Is it just going to be the same look as the one's on the A-10C??? Any interest in a user made campaign made solely for night operations?


Edited by frixon28
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I still think the Harrier isn't the ideal aircraft for SEAD'ing. DEAD, yes why not? Along with A-10s and F/A-18s? (IMHO DEAD is more fun :D)

 

In terms of IR guided SAMs and AAA (SHORAD), you can do a pretty good job with the A-10C, it has MWS in case someone has the line of sight to shoot at you. A-10C has its own limitations too, speed, altitude recovery, ECM etc.. But it has an excellent combat range and payload. Which isn't really the case with the Harrier.

 

The Harrier however, can land anywhere. Being the aircraft carrier or land itself. It can be refueled and rearmed in minutes.

 

In case you need to penetrate an enemy airspace that is protected by SAMs, having an aircraft that needs to be refueled every Y minutes doesn't seem to be a great idea, since the Harrier does not have any good ARM, you need to get really close to the enemies to be able to shoot a missile. Being the Maverick or Sidearm. They aren't always effective, especially if the target can intercept your missiles.

 

As said above, range is very important. Being able to shoot stand-off weapons is better, safer and easier. Harrier doesn't have any of that, same goes for the A-10C, simply because they don't have any medium-to-long range ARMs.

 

F/A-18C is by far the best SEAD aircraft that we are officially getting as a module, until a F-16 arrives. (the Viper is even better because it has its own pod).

 

The HTS pod not only can be used to shoot ARM missiles, but it can be used to employ JDAMs, JSOWs and others.

 

Harrier is good for many other things, such as CAS, strike missions etc. Not for SEAD though. (Obviously I am talking about our Harrier).


Edited by Vitormouraa
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