How not to snap wings?

step 1 mush stage 5

step 2 pull full aft

step 3 cry on forums

I find this thread so much hilarious. it really shows a lot of you guys just really pull and are so used to the hud information. It seems that some of you can't adapt to a plane to find out where the G meter. located. just flying to understand the plane instead of just trying to go into combat with it.

 

Use some common sense

 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Lulz. You are the type of Pilot that ends up on my 12 in the first turn after the merge, because he doesnt want to overstress the airframe. If you want to compete in an actual pvp dogfight you have to push the plane to the limits. If the wings rip inconsistently any decent pilot will rip them in bfm.

Just checked the tacview and the wings snapped in a sustained turn that started at around 6G's and tightened up to 9.0 G's. At 9.0-9.1 G's the wing snapped. Surely this isn't right.

 

EDIT: Just checked again and it was actually a 7G pull with a slight roll (see attached picture). During the initiation of that roll that magenta cube separates from the aircraft, indicating structural failure.

Airhunter, Tacview is really bad at catching quick spikes in G, like suggested before I’d like to see a screen capture of you doing some manuvering that would break the wings for you, making sure the G-meter is visible or the telemetry bar at the bottom is also visible.

Everyone is familiar with pitch g, but less discussed is ROLLING g LIMIT.

If pitch g is a straight pull, rolling g is the same thing FOR THE UPWARD MOVING WING.

If you will pull the wing off in a straight 9 g pull, then if you pull 8 g and roll slightly, the upward moving wing experiences 9 g.

If you pull 7 g you can roll a little quicker.

Also of great importance is V_Ma.

V_Ma (V sub Ma) is Velocity, Maneuvering. It is the limit speed at which ONE control axis can be moved to full deflection in ONE direction, and returned to neutral, without damaging the structure.

Read that last paragraph very carefully. It is a LIMIT SPEED.

Above V_Ma you can NOT move ANY control to maximum deflection without possible damage.

COMBINATION OF INPUTS IS NOT CONSIDERED, and thus you become a test pilot if you start pulling 8 g and making hard rolling maneuvers at 500 kts.

The mantra is SMOOTH CONTROL INPUTS.

It's much harder to fly a simulator near limits due to the lack of feel. IRL you can pull g without reference to the instrument as you develop a feel for it. Our fast-jet brothers and sisters with anti-g suits have even more feedback, assuming the maneuver isn't too aggressive.

I for one, are pleased to find the sim caring for rolling g limits. I pulled the wing pylon stores off during a high g rolling maneuver, but because I used gradual inputs I unloaded as soon as I heard the bang.

I haven't pulled the stores off since. ;)

Fly her realistically, and she'll treat you well.

I've pulled over 10 g and didn't bend anything.

It would be worth flying some flights and learning the relationship between airspeed, AoA, pull, and g. Get that memory muscle working.

There is a reason the AoA indexer is near eye-line while the g meter is buried in the panel - it is more informative than pure g.

^This. In the Twitch clip above the pilot is

a) Yanking the stick to the point where the AoA goes above 15 at Mach 1, implying the pitch g-load is enormous (my guess is 10 ish)

b) Rolling (either intentionally or not) as he goes for said ridicolous stick yank, right before the wings come off.

In an ideal world, every module in DCS should lose its wings in that regime. It's a pity they don't really.

In an ideal world, every module in DCS should lose its wings in that regime. It's a pity they don't really.

In an ideal world the DCS F-14 like the real world F-14 wouldnt rip it‘s wings at all, because the dampening of the stick and the forces on the control surfaces are properly simulated.

I mean, if I can get pretty high pitch rates in the Mig-29, SU-27/33, F/A-18 or even the Viggen without braking anything then I will rather take them into combat than a plane that snaps its wings off during a simple and gentle roll change in a 7G turn. Plane's aren't made out of glass.

What's the point in fighting in a plane where you need to be careful about snapping your wing off in a dogfight rather than focus on the bad guy infront or on your six and push the plane to its limit?

I will do some tests and record it all with shadowplay to showcase the broken demage model that is currently implemented.

Don't understand how this is an issue for some people after the first one or two flights... I mean just don't yank the stick around like you're flying a WW1 biplane. Teach yourself to fly smooth, something which will also help you get the most out of any plane.

I've broken the F-14's wings once in beginning when learning to fly the plane, but that was also with a pretty hamfisted yank on the stick at Mach 1 where I probably exceeded 13 G. After that I set some pitch curves and made sure I pulled progressively at high speeds. Since then it has never happened again.

I mean, if I can get pretty high pitch rates in the Mig-29, SU-27/33, F/A-18 or even the Viggen without braking anything then I will rather take them into combat than a plane that snaps its wings off during a simple and gentle roll change in a 7G turn. Plane's aren't made out of glass.

What's the point in fighting in a plane where you need to be careful about snapping your wing off in a dogfight rather than focus on the bad guy infront or on your six and push the plane to its limit?

 

I will do some tests and record it all with shadowplay to showcase the broken demage model that is currently implemented.

You bring up a good point. Did real Tomcat pilots have to pay this much attention to not breaking/overstressing the aircraft?

I mean I always get my turning and G reference by the rate and speed at which my nose or pitch line on the HUD slices across the sky or horizon.

You bring up a good point. Did real Tomcat pilots have to pay this much attention to not breaking/overstressing the aircraft?

As stated before they had not. The stick was dampened to prevent overstress of the airframe. If you compare DCS vs real world:

Pilot pulls stick too hard:

1. Real World --> Springs and dampers prevent the pilot from pulling too far/fast.

2. DCS --> no springs/dampening/feedback available, airframe gets overstressed and rips wings

This should'nt be possible. I would rather like the DCS F-14 to stop the control surface deflection where the real world F-14 stick would have stopped it.

You could over stress a Tomcat, but you had feedback from G forces and a calibrated arse.

You'll just have to work out how far aft you can pull in the sim with your controller setup.

Thanks Victory.

BTW guys, I'm still waiting for the tracks of the 5-6G wing breaks from all your stories? Keep them coming… :music_whistling:

You could over stress a Tomcat, but you had feedback from G forces and a calibrated arse.

 

You'll just have to work out how far aft you can pull in the sim with your controller setup.

Could you overstress it by pulling too quick? Or did the dampening prevent it and overstressing was only able if you pull too far?

Are y'all disengaging Pitch SAS before entering ACM? I used to over-g my aircraft all the time till I started using the emergency autopilot disconnect paddle before maneuvering, which also disables Pitch and Roll SAS. I know from a mechanical standpoint you wouldn't do that in real life, but I suspect it changes the effectiveness of the stabilizers over the stick input curve, since most of us do not have force feedback. Or maybe its a placebo effect?!

You mean in regard to disengaging Pitch SAS, or how you’re going about doing it? The manual says to disable Roll SAS before ACM.

Under the AFCS section of the manual: “Roll SAS should not be used for situations involving flight at AOA above 15 units and should therefore be set to off for combat maneuvers.”

I learned to watch my speed before a hard maneuver.

at 450+ knots you need to be really carefull

below 300 knots its almost safe

It would help A LOT if the accelerometer were on the upper frame of the cockpit near the central mirror but we have it on the right knee which is the worst place since you cant see it when you need it.

It would help A LOT if the accelerometer were on the upper frame of the cockpit near the central mirror but we have it on the right knee which is the worst place since you cant see it when you need it.

This reminds me of a question, It seems the G-meter has moved at some point? In one of the earlier cockpit promo images it was in the top right on the panel. But since has been moved down to where it is now. Is this how it was in the A model or did it differ from aircraft to aircraft depending on its history?

It moved in the B ALR67 update

It moved in the B ALR67 update

Ah Copy, Thanks.

My first few try i always broke the wings it is getting better now.

You mean in regard to disengaging Pitch SAS, or how you’re going about doing it? The manual says to disable Roll SAS before ACM.

 

Under the AFCS section of the manual: “Roll SAS should not be used for situations involving flight at AOA above 15 units and should therefore be set to off for combat maneuvers.”

The AP Disconnect paddle on the stick disconnects the A/P, Roll and Pitch SAS (there was some talk that this may be a bug). I was playing around with assignments one day and hit the Paddle before maneuvering and found the pitch control much more relaxed (not as responsive) as with Pitch SAS on (counter-intuitive I know). I'm able to make lower sustained G turns with the same stick input than the excessive G snaps I was getting before.

Like I said it might all just be psychological, but my guess is that the simulation of SAS in addition to stabilizing the A/C also changes the pitch output curve in relation to stick input. Or something like that. As much as I like the realism and details that HB has implemented in the module, its still a simulation, and what I am proposing is a work around that would not have been done in a real Tomcat or as per the manual.

As Victory has stated, the root cause is the lack of force feedback due to aerodynamic forces, which can't be reproduced in the Sim because very few users have the equipment to do so. So in fact the stick input given by users are unrealistic in of itself, hence all the planes falling out of the sky, until you master your muscle memory.

Keep in mind a lot of modern A/C are FBW, and suffers from the same problem in real life. The controls aren't connected to the flight surfaces and therefore the pilots can't feel the aerodynamic response to the input. Hence why the flight computers "interpret" the stick input and produce an flight control surface output that will get as close to what the pilot said they wanted without ripping off the wings.

You should always disable pitch SAS entering a dogfight!

I almost gave up on the Tomcat but after reading a bunch of posts I went back after it. Take all the curve out of your stick then practice turns. Ease into them at First gradually pulling farther back on the stick but NEVER jerk it. Always gradually and before you know it your turning on a dime like a rocket. This thing can really handle BUT you have to stay off the AOA. If in a turn she starts to buffet, glance down at airspeed, if its slow add power, if its fast she’s telling you to ease off the stick a tad.

Once you get the hang of it you’ll never go back. She’s a beast!!

There is a “dissimilar aircraft 2v1 mission” with the F14 that pits you against 2 Mirages. I would just spend an hour or so just getting in behind them. Great plane to practice against. Just remember if they get at your six, hammer the burner and go vertical and reset the fight.

You will get the hang of it quickly.

buy an extension

You should always disable pitch SAS entering a dogfight!

You might have confused it with roll SAS.

@Biggs: “dissimilar aircraft 2v1 mission” - where is it?