Tacview Anti-cheat delay poll

They're the same thing.. the export data should be available online (ftp or whatever) but after the server restarts.

They're not the same thing, but thanks for clarifying! I understand your point now...And here's why I disagree:

Let's take 104th for example since they're the most popular PVP server AND seemingly the most interested in the Tacview anti-cheat stuff. They have a four hour rotation. Let's say I get in there right after the mission changes with my squadmates and we fly for a little while, perhaps 45 minutes. Okay, now we land, decide on whether we want to check Tacview or fly again. With your idea, we would have to wait at least 3 hours if we wanted to check the Tacview recording.

Couple of problems with that:

1) People don't have time to wait.

2) You're not fixing the knowledge problem; People who want to see where things are will see where things are.

I see no reward in such a delay besides making the paranoid feel better about themselves. Seriously, what is it with this thread? Is this a good yardstick of how distrusting and paranoid the public/PvP community is?

There's nothing worse in a gaming community than the cheaters/exploiters/hackers, so I voted for the longest delay possible. in fact, we should only be able to download the game data AFTER the session is over.. it's the only way we can prevent such bad habits.

I think there's a lot of things worse than cheaters, e.g., a crappy game, or a good game made crappy by concessions to cheaters. Though arguably, the latter is the fault of cheaters. So maybe what's worse than cheaters are cheaters who make a good game crappy!

And I think crippling a fantastic tool is not "the only way" we can prevent such bad habits.

I see no reward in such a delay besides making the paranoid feel better about themselves. Seriously, what is it with this thread? Is this a good yardstick of how distrusting and paranoid the public/PvP community is?

+1

I think there's a lot of things worse than cheaters, e.g., a crappy game, or a good game made crappy by concessions to cheaters. Though arguably, the latter is the fault of cheaters. So maybe what's worse than cheaters are cheaters who make a good game crappy!

 

And I think crippling a fantastic tool is not "the only way" we can prevent such bad habits.

'One rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel'..

Buddyspike must mitigate this behaviour of certain people who can't refrain themselves from cheating, which probably is a syndrome itself, by finding a solution that doesn't alter the gameplay. Tacview is NOT part of the gameplay and Blue Flag is NOT a training mission..you supposed to know your tactics for the next mission and aftewards you can debrief it using tacview.

A cheater is still a cheater even when he makes excuses..

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

A cheater is still a cheater even when he makes excuses

Yes, let us all agree that cheaters suck and, given that this is a game with no reward except for playing it, all probably have some deep-rooted issues that are eating themselves from within. We can keep repeating this in many different ways, but honestly, you are preaching to the choir here.

Buddyspike must mitigate this behaviour of certain people who can't refrain themselves from cheating, which probably is a syndrome itself, by finding a solution that doesn't alter the gameplay. Tacview is NOT part of the gameplay and Blue Flag is NOT a training mission..you supposed to know your tactics for the next mission and aftewards you can debrief it using tacview.

The world goes beyond Blue Flag, but OK.

Point is, with the last 10 minutes or 30 minutes not available when you get killed, you really don't know what happened, right, which makes TacView pretty useless. So what's it good for in those cases?

I think if you are so paranoid about cheaters, don't use TacView, delay or no delay. Even with the last 10 minutes or 20 minutes gone, there is enough info there to give that rotten apple something to work with to ruin the whole barrel.

I don't think it's entirely reasonable to demand (relatively) immediate Tacview feedback when you're in a public arena. If you're looking to get in detail about what went wrong or right during a sortie, you should also be flying with and against people you are in close contact with and using a private, passworded server. Random encounters with random people are not a sound basis for training on a level commensurate with using Tacview. I think the best implementation would be a server-side recording of the tacview which could be automatically saved and offered for retrieval on a website or something, but I realize it's also a substantial bit more work than simply setting a delay. I think the delay could work, but anything over 10 minutes really makes it impractical with having to purposely idle in the server to ensure you get all the information of interest. And like Mav said, 10 minutes is airing on the short side if you're concerned with compromising a strike sortie that can easily take much longer to reach their target and whose flight path can be easily assumed once you can guess they're striking a particular target. Waiting until the end of a mission and making the Tacview available in its entirety is the only way to really address both sides of it, and then the Tacview could be archived for a length of time determined by the server operator.

I think the best implementation would be a server-side recording of the tacview which could be automatically saved and offered for retrieval on a website or something,.

I think this is a great idea, and probably the best solution to accommodate the various needs/demands.

That's a fair idea, here's another thing to consider, though:

Look at the way Tacview tracks are recorded right now - You have to play the DCS track to record it...The DCS track is how long you were on the server...But considering you can play the track at a higher speed...

What if the delay on playback was based on how long you were connected to the server?

Like a set ratio of that time, perhaps 50-75%? Basically what we have now with the auto-recording disabled and whatnot, just a LOT more stable because the track isn't going to break itself randomly!

Seriously, what is it with this thread? Is this a good yardstick of how distrusting and paranoid the public/PvP community is?

Regardless of the discussion of this thread, this implementation is completely up to the discretion of server owners. It's not "paranoia," it is an actual issue and more options to deal with it are always better. You should be glad for the possibility that this might give you an option for retrieving Tacviews from sessions on 104th because without it it's clear where they stand on allowing export. If there's a demand for a PvP environment with (immediate, if this option is persued) export enabled, someone just needs to start that server and the numbers of participants will speak for themself.

I am glad that the possibility of reliably retrieving Tacviews from PVP servers like 104th is very near. It's great news for the MP community. :thumbup:

I'm just tired of the "cheaters, cheaters everywhere" (<--that needs to be a meme) paranoia that's been running around here for a while. ;)

Edit: LOL well that is a meme:

Server admins are not paranoid about cheats, running a very popular competitive server means you're going to get all walks of life. Preventing live TACVIEW in an admins mind stops accusations and server arguments more than anything, you only have to look at the hullaballo over Leavu during the period IC was unavailable. It is so easy in this sim to make something not understood into something untoward, this nonsense then spreads like wild fire.

All server admins want is a friendly server.

Seems like Tacview should do what real-time aerial digital reconnaissance already does.

Options to limit it, or scale its capabilities downward, for whatever reason, might be made as part of the program, but with the availability of AWACs platforms that many nation-states already employ, why limit it altogether?

Seems like this is something every mature Air Force already does; why shouldn't the full capability be available to DCS users, or any simulation users, for that matter?

It would fit in seamlessly with Combined Arms, for instance.

You could even go so far as to associate it with an aircraft platform as part of any MP environment.

Yes, Tacview need its own export and there can help only ED with dedicated and hard-coded Tacview Export script. For users/server with on/off option only.

 

Tacview is "must have" tool for DCS. Why not as DCSW Modul and all that partnership as other 3rd party mudules. That`s my recommendation for Virtuoz and ED. Just make dedicated export script and take our money. :)

 

All will be happy. (except LEAVU fan club ;) )

 

:joystick:

Agree. Flight sims have had ACMI features since at least DID's F-22 ADF and probably before that. TacView is so useful that it should definitely be available as an official DCS module and should be closely integrated in to the base game. I suspect that this would solve the issue of 'stream cheaters' entirely.

To answer some of your concerns

Is an anti-cheat feature necessary?

Yes. This is a fact: As soon as you are online, cheaters will always ruin the games of honest players. Just try hosting a public server with full export enabled and no data integrity check and you will quickly notice one person starting to do suspicious tricks with his/her aircraft. At least, the anti-cheat opton will prevent cheaters from using Tacview in such a manner…

Why is the Tacview anti-cheat system enabled by default?

If the anti-cheat system was disabled by default, it would be much easier for cheaters to find a workaround and disable this protection when it is enabled. Because Tacview assumes that the session should be protected by default, if a cheater was trying to circumvent the system, in the worst case, he/she would still be stuck with the default 10 minutes delay. Better to be safe than sorry...

Why 10 minutes by default, not more, or not less?

It seems that 10 minutes is a good average which should work well with most servers (for both slow and fast movers). Remember that, if you are the host, you can change this delay if you are not happy with it.

Can I disable this delay?

If you are the host, then you can! Just install Tacview on your server, and choose the delay of your liking in the dedicated option panel in DCS World. You may want to disable data recording so your server will never be slowed down by the Tacview exporter recording data (even if the impact is low in general).

Can we have a 5 minutes delay by default?

According to common sense and based on these survey results, 5 minutes is probably too small by default. Nevertheless, in Tacview 1.6 you will be able to lower the default delay to 5 minutes if you want to.

It is possible to disable this anti-cheat delay while playing back a track?

Because cheaters could use track replay to circumvent the anti-cheat delay, it is necessary to keep the replay protected. However, in a future version of the exporter, the anti-cheat delay will be automatically and appropriately shortened when playing back tracks. In the end, honest players should be happy with the incoming improvement in that matter.

Can I record and protect the data directly on my server?

• Install the Tacview exporter on the server side.
  
• Enable the option “Create one file for each network client”. This will create a distinct file for each player connected to your server.
  
• Share the root of the folder containing all the generated acmi files on a GoogleDrive or a Dropbox folder.
  

This can be used to:

• Increase clients’ frame rate (because they do not have to record data anymore). Very handy to reach the holy grail of 90 fps for the VR headsets.
  
• Archive all your squadron flights.
  
• With a minimum amount of work, I am pretty sure you can delay data sharing on DropBox.
  

Can't you just take my money and make an iPad/Android version?

Yes, I am on it. Just be patient, only two more weeks™ left ;)

Could you encrypt the ACMI file and make the delay apply on the key giving moment rather than actual recording?

In case of a server with 60 clients, the option “Create one file for each network client”. makes 60 files on the server?

+1 for apps!

When your enable “Create one file for each network client”, the exporter will create one file for each session of each client. Which means that if you have 60 clients joining one game once, you will get 60 files. If one client leaves and comes back later, you will have a new additional file (which gives us 61 files), etc.

There are several problems with encrypted files to be de-crypted with a key which is published later:

• First, we can assume that people are cheating only on public servers. This means that these servers usually do not have a repository (website or shared volume) to share any data like the keys.
  
• Also, how could the server be aware of the keys it must share from the exporter?
  
• When do we want to share such keys? After each mission? (which may be go from hours to weeks for some servers). Because we certainly cannot share the keys after each client connection…
  
• Assuming there will probably be a long delay before the relevant key would be shared (end of a mission for example). When she/he has finally access to the decryption key, the client would just have forgotten about what he/she wants to review…
  

Believe me, this is really a very complex issue to solve. So far, the anti-cheat solution I have implemented is the best one I have found overall.

Can I ask something stupid? How do you cheat with Tacview? :D When I try to load the file while still in game it doesn't load.

So I have to wait until I leave server, and in most case I forgot what I did 1 hour ago so I don't learn as much as if I could check WTF happened when it's happening :)

Also the delay often cause me not to learn anything as a huge mistake is often followed by a rage quit losing all last 10 minutes :D :D

I am not using TacView but one of those poor Heli Pilots !

Knowing about where "we" are is enough to get us down in a relative short time.

No, no one needs to see where we are :P

Hidden, low, slow...if the hidden is gone low and slow suddenly becomes a malus

The delay doesn't matter when most servers only have only player position export on, to me this is the most frustrating thing.

Isn't there someway that we can replay the track from DCS playback at a later time and then have Tacview capture the entire flight?

I was flying the other day and had an awesome dogfight and dumped tons of rounds into the enemy plane and wanted to see the fight in Tacview. I replayed the track days later in DCS for Tacview to record it (I was not even online at the time) and was able to watch the entire track in DCS but Tacview would not record the last ten minutes. There was no way to get the info into Tacview because the dogfight started about 7 minutes before the mission ended, so there is no way I can hang out for an extra ten minutes to get the data in Tacview because the DCS track ends.

It just seems like you should be able to get around this in some way for recordings made at a later time. After all, all of the required data is present our DCS replay would not be able to replay the entire track. So I have the data and I can watch it in DCS replay just not Tacview.

Overall I love Tacview and you guys are doing a great job!

My dear friends,

Indeed, I don't care if someguys like to cheat with tacview. I would be more interested to have the opportunity to check my tacview file right after leaving an online server, like 104th's, than staying in dark. Cheaters IMO are better opponents and I prefer to have better enemies to face, as I will become better. I don't like to cheat. In the same context, I don't care whether someone enjoys cheating in DCS.

In a coming update of the exporter you will be able to record the full track, assuming it is played back later enough after the online session.

Isn't there someway that we can replay the track from DCS playback at a later time and then have Tacview capture the entire flight?

 

I was flying the other day and had an awesome dogfight and dumped tons of rounds into the enemy plane and wanted to see the fight in Tacview. I replayed the track days later in DCS for Tacview to record it (I was not even online at the time) and was able to watch the entire track in DCS but Tacview would not record the last ten minutes. There was no way to get the info into Tacview because the dogfight started about 7 minutes before the mission ended, so there is no way I can hang out for an extra ten minutes to get the data in Tacview because the DCS track ends.

 

It just seems like you should be able to get around this in some way for recordings made at a later time. After all, all of the required data is present our DCS replay would not be able to replay the entire track. So I have the data and I can watch it in DCS replay just not Tacview.

 

Overall I love Tacview and you guys are doing a great job!

In a coming update of the exporter you will be able to record the full track, assuming it is played back later enough after the online session.

Works for me!

Thank you Sir.

Alpha

In a coming update of the exporter you will be able to record the full track, assuming it is played back later enough after the online session.

The persistence of the 10 minute delay even in playback of a recorded flight is really annoying... But, since I can't write the code to make it work right I really have no room to complain:).

Will the update you mention include the ability to go back and export data from a flight flown in the previous version?

Yes, you will be able to export the flight from old track file, assuming DCS is able to properly replay the track file.