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Which DCS module has the best flight model?


Fred00

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The question would be what are the criterias that would allow to quantify "which DCS module has the best flight model". Other than that the discussion will be just purelly subjective, leaning towards what "I like and enjoy to fly" more.

F/A-18, F-16, F-14, M-2000C, A-10C, AV-8B, AJS-37 Viggen, F-5E-3, F-86F, MiG-21bis, MiG-15bis, L-39 Albatros, C-101 Aviojet, P-51D, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, Bf 109 4-K, UH-1H, Mi-8, Ka-50, NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf... and not enough time to fully enjoy it all

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My opinion (I am not a real pilot)

 

1. Mi-8 - You can feel/sense the weight and size as you toss it around, and it is pure joy to fly and manage the systems. I feel very involved when I fly the Mi-8, and I am rarely taken out of the experience and reminded that it is just a video game.

 

2. Huey - Very close the Mi-8, but it feels just a hair less "weighty". It is by far my favorite module in DCS, and the most fun you can have with your clothes on in VR.

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Best is very subjective. I would say that the majority has a fantastic FM! For me the MiG-21 has a feeling of flight that is really great. If you pull too hard on the stick you can actually feel it slipping through the air. It might not be the most accurate FM (high AoA etc), but it feels like you are flying.

 

Least favourite: Hawk. It's fun to take out for a spin once in a while but the performance are way off the charts and not realistic in my opinion, no problem to pull 30(!) G's :huh:

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Only one person mentioned the A10C.

 

I am surprised, because the A10C is supposed to be the most realistic of all the DCS aircrafts.

 

I only fly the Su25T & A10C, so between them, the A10C will definitely get my vote. :)

 

Also, I am unable to comment on the other aircrafts, as I do not own them, nor have I tried the P-51D.

 

I think we need some veterans to sort this thing out.

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I don't think anyone has mentioned the Su25 vanilla which is an absolute peach to fly compared to the 25T, never tire of flying the Frogfoot.

 

I second that, the vanilla Frog is an absolute joy to fly!

 

Others I really like to fly are F-5E, Mirage, P-51D. I must confess though that I fly them like an airliner, I almost never search for the flight boundaries and keep it very safe.

 

Viggen seems a future winner to me, but FM isn't final yet so I shouldn't include it here. At the moment turn performance is abysmal.

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the A10C is supposed to be the most realistic of all the DCS aircrafts.

 

Well I'd say the Mi-8 is the most realistic, actually. The FM is unsurpassed and the systems are accurately modelled as well. Folks say it still misses some features (the bombsight etc.), but IMO, it's the best of them all regardless. Just my £0.0002 though :)

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I would say the best modeled FM is that of the L-39.

 

The FMs of the Belsimtek modules are all very good, all are a pure joy to fly and very well deliver the "suspension of disbelief" experience especially the UH-1 and the Mi-8 FMs.

 

If there is one thing that is missing from the modelling across the breadth of DCS modules I'd say its the compressor stalls for fighters that can reach high AoA.

 

Some module specific issues I notice in the last few updates:

 

The FM of the MiG-21 used to "feel" very good but currently since the last couple of updates seems porked with regards to behavior in high AoA and roll rate inertia - hopefully will be fixed (it used to feel spot-on!).

 

The FM of the Spitfire feels good but the ease at which the lateral forces cause the wing scraping the ground seems too much exaggerated - hopefully will be fixed since its a still beta.

 

IMHO the worst modeled FMs are the Hawk and the Gazelle.

 

S!


Edited by ViFF

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Pure flying? Hawk... Seconded by the Mirage.

Helicopters definitely the Huey. Though Gazelle and Mi-8 are fantastic, as well. :dunno:

 

Sorry I have to intervene. Although I agree that Mi-8 and Huey feels extremely well regarding helicopter FM, Gazelle lacks a lot in that department!

 

Gazelle team has to work a bit on the FM because there are inconsistencies regarding FM and what a helicopter should react to pilot inputs.

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Sorry I have to intervene. Although I agree that Mi-8 and Huey feels extremely well regarding helicopter FM, Gazelle lacks a lot in that department!

 

Gazelle team has to work a bit on the FM because there are inconsistencies regarding FM and what a helicopter should react to pilot inputs.

 

That is your thoughts on this, some may disagree :). It can't be that bad, otherwise I don't think the ALAT would use it for training ;).

 

Improvements can be made for sure but we have to remember that the Huey FM wasn't perfect on day one and, even if it's really good, it can still be improved :).

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

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That is your thoughts on this, some may disagree :). It can't be that bad, otherwise I don't think the ALAT would use it for training ;).

 

Improvements can be made for sure but we have to remember that the Huey FM wasn't perfect on day one and, even if it's really good, it can still be improved :).

 

Sorry mate, can you put me in contact with some ALAT folks? Because if they say the FM is ok... Then it goes against all my life. :)

 

You don't have to remind me that the Huey FM was not perfect before final. What I commented, was the conviction that Gazelle FM is good. It is not.

 

And if I say it is not, it's because I have some background and experience to say it isn't.

 

I really have hopes that they fix what it's not realistic in terms of helicopter flight dynamics. Right now, sometimes it feels like a scripted FM to be honest.

 

But I agree with you, it's not final. What I was commenting was regarding the assumptions made that the Gazelle FM is ok.

 

I cannot speak about airplanes, but I can speak a bit about helicopters.

 

Cheers mate.

 

PM:

 

Also I went to the Helljumper's Youtube channel, I don't know if it's yours or not but I was reading the VRS statements and the little experiment with FM. Everyone knows VRS in the helicopter industry, it's not easy to get into VRS in real life, unless some conditions are present or you try to put the helicopter in those conditions. Those conditions must be avoided by the pilot.

 

I never entered fully developed VRS but I have experience the initial VRS.

 

I can say that it is represented by a lack of forces in the cyclic (cyclic is not so effective) plus a great rate of descent which is increased if you increase collective, to the point where if deep VRS state is encounter, some defend that you cannot recover the flight even by using cyclic or collective, because by that time your whole rotor disk is stalled.

 

So the little video you have made, it can be representative of VRS initial state or not, because the collective is lower to enter VRS, so you have the right initial conditions, lack of forward speed and a descent rate more that 300~500 ft/m. I would say it is the initial VRS state, but the guy in the video did not increase the collective to see if the situation was aggravated, so you cannot take any conclusion from that like the guy who posted the video wanted to show.

 

So... My point is: it would be great for this community if people who lack experience did not try to defend or comment on things that are wrong or that they lack enough experience or knowledge to comment.

 

Because in the end we all lose.

 

Regards.


Edited by Focha
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As an aside: OP, IMHO, your use of the word "best" is confusing. It can be taken to mean "most authentic", and, in fact, is probably the most common interpretation. You clarify in your post "The question should not be interpreted as in "the most realistic" (that's kind of hard to judge for most of us) but instead which module you think feels the best in the air and is most enjoyable to fly", sure. But forums being forums, many people read the title and then jump in to post.

 

Most fun to fly (as in PURE flight, not taking into account combat or avionics): P-51D, Huey, Gazelle, F-5E, Mirage.

 

Most fun to fly in missions: Gazelle, Huey, F-5E

 

Other modules I have and have experience with but did not make the list:

 


  •  
  • A-10C (very well modeled in every aspect, but I find the flying itself to be not so fun --- easy and not so thrilling --- while the typical CAS mission profile, i.e. loiter around and then pound things, gets a little stale
     
  • Ka-50 (as the A-10C, probably one of the best modeled in terms of both flight and systems; but, as with the A-10C, flying is easy, especially compared to other helos. Love them mission profiles, for sure, but for some reason never got into it so much.)
     
  • Mi-8 (one of the greats, but whenever I want a transport helo, the Huey gets my love; no reason for this but personal emotion)
     
  • F-86 (is actually great fun to fly and probably fight, but never really spent much time with it to like it);
     
  • A-10A, F-15C, Su-27 (could never get into FC3 a/c; but Su-27 is the most beautiful jet fighter ever built);
     
  • Bf-109 (actually my choice of WW2 warbird, but somehow not as pleasurable to just fly as the P-51);
     
  • FW-190 (great bird and, like the Bf-109, very well-modeled, but just not my choice);
     

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Wow no need to be agressive...

 

The video was done as an answer to some who said there was no VRS at all. I understand that it can be not accurate but there is something.

 

I do agree with you, I don't have all the keys, you don't have all the keys, only the ALATs pilots might have them and they are effectively using the DCS Gazelle as well as their military simulator. (You don't have to trust me, but you can trust him : https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3052052&postcount=110)

 

Since i'm close to a Polychop consultant I know stuff on the DCS gazelle development that you don't, since you are a real helicopter pilot you know stuff on helicopters that I don't. I think we can help each others to understand the problem but we all have to show respect.

 

Sorry but your post looked very agressive to me with the lack of experience stuff....


Edited by myHelljumper

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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Wow no need to be agressive...

 

The video was done as an answer to some who said there was no VRS at all. I understand that it can be not accurate but there is something.

 

I do agree with you, I don't have all the keys, you don't have all the keys, only the ALATs pilots might have them and they are effectively using the DCS Gazelle as well as their military simulator. (You don't have to trust me, but you can trust him : https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3052052&postcount=110)

 

Since i'm close to a Polychop consultant I know stuff on the DCS gazelle development that you don't, since you are a real helicopter pilot you know stuff on helicopters that I don't. I think we can help each others to understand the problem but we all have to show respect.

 

Sorry but your post looked very agressive to me with the lack of experience stuff....

 

Sure, I was not trying to be aggressive. Sorry for that if it felt that way.

 

I have described a few dynamics that the Gazelle shouldn't do (even with fenestron, a conventional helicopter is a conventional helicopter) but I am sure that those issues are going to be effectively better in the future, first because I and others have had already the opportunity to write about those issues in the appropriate part of the forum and secondly because Polychop acknowledged it and already said that would be improved.

 

Also, and forgive me about this, in my humble opinion it does not mean much to say that ALAT uses the simulator.

 

For what purpose the simulator is used?

 

You know that you have levels of simulators in the real world. In some of those, the FM is truly terrible, really bad! In which you can only train operational/instruments procedures.

 

I once was in a professional helicopter simulator that it was really bad regarding FM and in the end it didn't served any purpose at all, or at least the intended purpose. After certification I think it was rated as EASA FNPT instead of intended FTD. Don't remember the levels, sorry.

 

Back on topic.

 

Maybe the problem is in the question on this thread and some answers given here.

 

After all it was asked for the best FM and I think that is a bit subjective.

 

Again myHelljumper, sorry if I felt aggressive, it was not my intention, but sometimes, in this community, there are some people that think they have technical/experience knowledge to talk about some specific things, like for example, FM and probably I was a bit on the preconception side of things when I read your first post.

 

I have to agree with what Bearfoot said in the first paragraph.

 

I could say that each and every helicopter or plane in DCS is unique in some way. And that it is really difficult to answer the question's post with only one module.

 

That depends what kind of aircraft do you like to fly and which era.

 

Don't get me wrong in the Gazelle, I think it is a great work of art. And its a lot of fun online with a proper human gunner or yourself as a gunner.

 

I don't really like the questions as it is in this thread.

 

All are good depending one what you are looking for.


Edited by Focha
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Try the tail draggers, they will give you a whole different outlook on flight!

 

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Try the tail draggers, they will give you a whole different outlook on flight!

 

:smartass::helpsmilie::pilotfly::joystick::mad:

 

Flight ? Not so sure...

 

Takeoff & landing - it becomes immediately obvious why designers adopted the nose wheel

Cheers.

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  • 8 months later...

I have a FFB joystick so that will undoubtedly color my experiences. With that said the Su27 I find comes in a close second.

 

Does the Su-27 work with your FFB joystick? It and the Su-33 don't seem to like my old Logitech Wingman Force Feedback 3D, they're completely uncontrollable, they just go wild. No issues with any of the other FC3 planes, but I can't fly the two best ones until I get a new stick.

 

I also have a problem trimming the F-5E back far enough when it's heavy. I can see on the controls display that the stick isn't going to the trim point as it should. It's not a show-stopper, but I have to apply back pressure on the stick until I drop enough stuff off my wings.

 

The Huey however is AMAZING with Force Feedback! It stays right in the position it's in when you release the Force Trim button. Too cool! (I assume the Mi-8 does this too but don't have it. Can anyone confirm?)


Edited by AdmiralQuality
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The Su-27 and Su-33 work fine with my old MSFFB II, as does the Mi-8

 

Interesting, thanks. I assumed it was Force Feedback in general and not my particular FFB stick. I guess that even further reduces any chances of talking them into fixing it, which is why I haven't bothered to report the bugs yet.

 

Oh well, I need to get a HOTAS some time anyway. But I'll be keeping the Logitech for the Huey!

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For me it is the Ka50. It took a long time to master this unit but, having done so, it became an obsession I can't get enough of. A fixed wing just seems very boring by comparison.

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Sure is a tricky question. I think i find the more enjoyable FM's are where you get a good sense of inertia, or can feel the characteristics of the particular airframe as might be expected according to specific features. So that said, as a yardstick, i find the FM's of newer planes, especially those with additional handling simplifications are less able to provide an interesting characterstic. Except perhaps the SU-27, which does feel heavy and floaty.

Of the helicopters Mi8, then Huey, then Ka50. Of jets, Mig 15, Su27, Mig-21 then F-5 and A-10C. Of Props, the 109 over the Spit and 190 and P51.

All of the ones I listed are somewhat down to the plane rather than the modelling of it...for example the A-10C is such a well behaved model that it get's personally penalised for being a bit easy and lacking some accelearation, which isn't a fair judgement to the quality of the FM. The Mig15 is because its a bit dangerous under certain conditions. Is it fair I dislike the L-39C for being a bit underpowered? No, it's not fair even though it has been challenging. Is it fair to leave Mirage and F-15C out? No, bu they are a bit 'point and click' compared to a prop and I prefer the feelings of the others. Why 109 over Spit? I like the power and fighting it. Realistically there is only one FM I dislike and it's shrouded in speculation, and then the Viggen which has some elements over time that are disapponting whcih I won't go into. Even the Hawk is half decent and has a good feeling, but again feels a little simple and gets penalised on a subjective performance issue related to the plane itself.

I lean to the props though because the behaviour is more complex, they take more effort to fly and when you lack jet power they show you more about flying in a more obvious and unforgiving way. But Mig-15 probably has the nicest personal subjective mix of ludicrous speed, danger but great handling all wrapped into one. It's probably the plane itself. I'm more of a flying fan than a specific airframe fan. If it's quirky I love it. If it killed me, I love it more.

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