Recommended axis curve for air refueling

I was under the impression that, on top of a lot of practice and other tips that can be found on the forum, using non-linear axis is critical.

I know it probably changes from aircraft to aircraft, and joystick to joystick, but I assume it should be somewhat in the same range?

I have a T16000M (joystick, throttle and pedals) and from what I have found online, it is quite sensitive and precise. At the moment, I set my curves around 50, with a small deadzone of something 7 or 8. For the pedals, I have a big deadzone of 20, since those rudder pedals are a bit cheap and I feel the center is loose.

Anyhow, what do you air refueling pros use as curves? Any chance someone with a T16000M could share some tip?

Thanks.

50 is a huge curve. Almost no change close to middle but steep ramp the further you go. Start at around 20 - 25 and see how that goes. In the M2000, set your FBW gain to the AG setting to make it less sensitive while refuelling.

I find that curves between 10 and 20 work best for me, but closer to 10-15. Otherwise it gets way too steep towards the middle.

curves are like a bad loan, it will catch you

Maybe try without curve and deadzone and see how it goes ?

7-8 deadzone is HUGE...

Like you said it depends a lot on the specific setup you have (type of joystick, the position you have it at, an extension you might have for it, ...) AND the module itself: general responsiveness of the controls, fly-by-wire or not, ...

There is no such things as a universal "recommended" curve, only what works for you specifically.

For most modules I don't use a curve at all, but generally speaking I look down at the virtual control stick inside the cockpit, and try to match the responsiveness and range of movement with my own physical joystick.

To me a curve of 50 and a 7-8 deadzone seems utter madness, but maybe it will work for some people...

I second myHelljumper's advise: first try without curves and deadzones, and if needed gradually (and slowly) increase them until you find the sweetspot. And do that same procedure for every aircraft seperately.

For t16000 i use a program called joystick curves to setup 2 profiles, one with no mods/curves, and a second that only allows 50% deflection. You can set a key/button to switch between the 2 on the fly. It works great for precise flying switching to the second profile, you get much more precision near the center. This way you can have a setup with minimal curves, which is a good thing

If curves on the profile help you to get started with A2A refuelling, then absolutely, go for it. Most difficult part of the process is getting the 'FIRST CONNECTION'. After time, you can gradually reduce the curve, so you get a good balance between normal flying and refuelling. The stick axes are the least problematic. The throttle is hardest to control, where a curve creates more problems that its solves, and spool up times complicate it more. Make sure you have an accurate throttle with smooth movement.

My problem with a2a refueling is that i seem to be able to connect to the tanker, but then can't maintain it.

I may be talking myself out of it, but as i approach the boom, i find myself thinking, "i must slow down when i get to the boom, otherwise i'll fly under the wing of the tanker". i then move the throttles back very slightly, in the M2000c the flow rate drops from 38 to 37, and either slow down too much or just get distracted and wander off to one side or the other.

I can just about stay connected long enough to take on more fuel than i've burned getting it, but it does take a fair number of attempts and a long time to get the tanks full.

I've recently been trying changing the curve on the throttle, to hopefully make it easier to make fine adjustments to my speed, but have yet to succeed.

As my son keeps telling me, i need to stop moaning and just "git gud". ;)

2 dead zone. 98 for both of the next and 28 for the curve. Been using that for years and I tank all the time. We started using these curves when we were flying a Hornet mod and it made all the difference for a number of us. I've continued to use the same for the Harrier with the same success.

The other thing to try is using only 2 fingers on front and your thumb near the base of your HOTAS. It lessens the amount of movement you input and results in a more controlled approach.

What plane is giving your AAR difficulties? I don't have the same curvature for all planes.

I dont recommend curves at all... Use trim nose down and hold stick back especially during refueling. Better dive by letting stick go and retry than hit the tankers aft.

I would say to use no curves whatsoever and focus on the refuelling plane, making sure you can match its speed trimming the aircraft.

Then only make small adjustments in pitch, prefer pedals to ailerons for lateral corrections and if you use a twin engine "walk the throttle", with small increments to increase or decrease speed.

I trained loads of formation and interception flights to make sure I could match speed prior to attempt AAR.

Curves aren't bad. People with short sticks and no curves are being masochists for no reason. Using linear response is ok if you have a very steady hand or a longer stick but for the usual T16000 / Fighterstick etc using a bit of a curve makes small movements a hell of a lot more manageable.

Regarding the curve I use, and to those who think I might be crazy, I used to have a lot lower numbers with the previous joystick I had. I was using a curve of 20 to 25 I think, and almost no deadzone.

But, since I switched to the T16000, I found that it was SUPER sensitive. Any minor input on the stick was causing major movements of the plane. At first I thought I was just bad and should be able to handle that, but...

Looking at videos of pilots, from withing their cockpits, in A10s, or Harrier, etc... You can see that they do make "relatively" large stick movements, for almost no movement of the plane. Just minor correction = "relatively" large stick movement. And I emphasize on "relatively". I'm not saying they are pushing the stick by 5 inches on one side. But at least 1 inch, to be honest, for almost no movement.

And, to put things in perspective, if I do push my joystick by one inch with no deadzone and linear config, I'm going to be upside down in 0.3 seconds.

Is there no one using a T16000 that can confirm this thing is very sensitive and precise?

(and yes of course it varies a lot from module to module... The F-5 I think is a clear example of a module that requires a curve. Everybody will probably agree on this).

And, also, why I was starting to think curves had something to do with A2A Refueling is because when I first tried it (the only plane I tried A2A refueling with so far), was on the Mirage and though I was always close to getting a connection, it was just impossible for me to do the small final corrections to achieve it.

Any small input on my side was causing a movement that was too big versus what it required. So, I'm sure you can connect the dots, I thought maybe changing my curves would help.

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware this is difficult and actual pilots who do it are very good. But, at the moment, I would need inhuman hand precision to be able to do it.

So ya, that was just to help clarify where I'm coming from.

And, I appreciate all the answers you guys provided so far. Though some think I'm crazy! XD

No curves for me. It’s difficult at first but IMO you must learn to control your inputs to keep them to be very minimal, when needed. Helps to learn this skill for formation flying as well.

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And, also, why I was starting to think curves had something to do with A2A Refueling is because when I first tried it (the only plane I tried A2A refueling with so far), was on the Mirage and though I was always close to getting a connection, it was just impossible for me to do the small final corrections to achieve it.

 

Any small input on my side was causing a movement that was too big versus what it required. So, I'm sure you can connect the dots, I thought maybe changing my curves would help.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware this is difficult and actual pilots who do it are very good. But, at the moment, I would need inhuman hand precision to be able to do it.

 

So ya, that was just to help clarify where I'm coming from.

 

And, I appreciate all the answers you guys provided so far. Though some think I'm crazy! XD

I really think your problem come from too much curve and dead-zone(!), try without any curve and very little dead-zone(1-2), you might be surprised it will get easier :).

For info, I connect and refuel my 2000 in one try 95% of the time without any curve or dead zone on my stock warthog stick and throttle (no extension), but I'm sure i do it because it's harder and i'm a masochist.... :D

I really think your problem come from too much curve and dead-zone(!), try without any curve and very little dead-zone(1-2), you might be surprised it will get easier :).

 

For info, I connect and refuel my 2000 in one try 95% of the time without any curve or dead zone on my stock warthog stick and throttle (no extension), but I'm sure i do it because it's harder and i'm a masochist.... :D

Nah, you just got gud ;)

I really think your problem come from too much curve and dead-zone(!), try without any curve and very little dead-zone(1-2), you might be surprised it will get easier :).

 

For info, I connect and refuel my 2000 in one try 95% of the time without any curve or dead zone on my stock warthog stick and throttle (no extension), but I'm sure i do it because it's harder and i'm a masochist.... :D

Maybe the answer is in between. Like, less curve and less deadzone, maybe not linear and 0 deadzone.

Linear and no deadzone on the T16000m is, I think, also crazy. Keep in mind the name comes from the fact that it this joystick manages 16000 analog positions, versus the usual 300 ish on most joysticks. Why they decided to go for 16000 points?! No idea... I don't even know if it's really that much of an advantage... :S

I mean, I'm not completely closed minded so I'll try it, but I am skeptical. I mean obviously when I first got it I wasn't using a 50 curve and I remember that something close to linear was un-manageable.

But again, I'm willing to try. I've been wrong before.

placebo. i thought curves helped when i was learning but by the time i got good it didnt matter what the input response looked like. looking back, the curves didnt make a difference at all. putting in regular practice did.

so do yourself a favor and just focus on the flying instead of looking for ways to make flying easier.

so do yourself a favor and just focus on the flying instead of looking for ways to make flying easier.

This is gold right here :).

Damn I miss the rep system...

placebo. i thought curves helped when i was learning but by the time i got good it didnt matter what the input response looked like. looking back, the curves didnt make a difference at all. putting in regular practice did.

 

so do yourself a favor and just focus on the flying instead of looking for ways to make flying easier.

Don't take this the wrong way, please, but I feel I should clarify that I am not trying to find "the easy way out". Too often on the forum, I feel a lot of people are quick on the trigger to assume people "are not committed enough" or something, or just looking for some "easy way out".

This is not my intention at all, and maybe it seemed like it was...? I don't know...

To say again something I mentioned before, the basis behind my "search for a curve" was after looking at real pilot video and realizing they were not doing "micro-movements" of the stick to do small corrections. While it felt like this is what I was doing on my side... So I thought "Hum ok... maybe this is why I am having a hard time".

So, if anything, I wasn't trying to find an easy way out, but rather making things more realistic...

And also, my girlfriend surely things I'm spending enough time on DCS... So it's not like I am not putting in the hours ;)

I don't think he was implying that :).

But with 50 curve and 8 dead-zone you CAN'T do air refueling.

And a lot of users here have said they are good at refueling without any curves or dead-zone so you should try it for a few hours :).

I don't think you was implying that :).

 

But with 50 curve and 8 dead-zone you CAN'T do air refueling.

 

And a lot of users here have said they are good at refueling without any curves or dead-zone so you should try it for a few hours :).

Yes and I will try it! :)

Even though I am uncertain, I kinda understand where you guys are coming from with the suggestion. There is some logic to it, so I'll try, that's for sure. :P