BVR Tactics with the AIM-7M

I'm curious what tactics one should use in a 1v1 SARH vs SARH fight. I know with the AMRAAM, the accepted tactic is to fire from long range, wait for Pitbull, then break radar lock and go defensive.

With the requirement to maintain radar lock on the AIM-7, what is the accepted / real world tactic to use? What I've been doing is firing from Rmax (ideally with an altitude advantage), then beaming the target at the limits of the radar gimble to reduce the enemy's Pk while maintaining my own lock. In most cases, this is a "throw-away" shot that the enemy can easily defeat, but it forces him to go defensive and means he can't fire his own SARH missile against me. Once he goes defensive, I can turn back hot and close the range for a subsequent shot. If he does shoot back and doesn't attempt to evade, my missile is closer and should kill him before his gets to me (thereby causing his to go ballistic).

However, the current WIP state of the radar is making this really tough, especially against AI, as I usually lose lock at some point in the long range shot and eat his return shot. Also, finding him again after losing lock is super tough, though that may get better with practice using the radar. I'm not writing this thread to discuss this, as it's already been discussed, but rather to hash out the proper tactics.

What other tactics might be of use out there, maybe something that would work better with the current state of the radar?

No one will go defensive when dealing with Rmax shot. Try best to maneuver while keeping lock - seems like mission impossible with this radar..

No one will go defensive when dealing with Rmax shot. Try best to maneuver while keeping lock - seems like mission impossible with this radar..

Even with an Rmax shot, if you don't go defensive, there's a high probability you're going to get hit... As soon as you go even a little bit defensive, you can defeat it - but if you do nothing, you're toast.

Head on against Mig-29A (with R-27) is almost impossible to make a kill with AIM-7 even from relatively close range (10 nautical miles). I always end up using my AIM-9 for a kill.

Indeed, the radar looses lock as soon as the bandit starts diving, regardless of my position, even while pointing my nose straight at the target..

Even with an Rmax shot, if you don't go defensive, there's a high probability you're going to get hit... As soon as you go even a little bit defensive, you can defeat it - but if you do nothing, you're toast.

You aren’t going to hit anything at rmax. It’s a wasted shot.

sniper is right, 7M is basically a WVR missile. your basic strategy is:

wait until 7-9m shoot, crank

if lock lost immediately, attempt to regain lock if successful very quickly, continue shooting 7s. if not, and visual is not gained within a few seconds, skate and refuse merge. pray friendlies arrive to save your ass.

if visual is gained and radar lock is at least moderately stable, continue shoot & crank to merge, at 4~ nm (assuming some altitude and not engaging on deck like an idiot) begin rippling off 9ms (tricky to see motor and often achieve surprise kills at this range if target is dumb and not dumping flares like no tomorrow) if you or target have not died yet, continue to merge. use nose high maneuver to maintain corner, maintain visual and pull to WEZ. shoot until missiles expended or target dead.

P.S. your real asset is friends. grab some hornetbros and work together. the way sukhoi SA works out i've gotten tons of kills basically by default because of the smoky motors of the russian kit- i go abeam, dive, chaff, and buddy bags the guy as he chases me into beam. also you can't really rely on one plane's worth of sparrows, but two or three is good. same with sidewinders, and it will help with WVR too.

tl;dr with current state of radar, you will find yourself skating often to survive. get used to it.

You aren’t going to hit anything at rmax. It’s a wasted shot.

Actually it’s not. Rmax is the max range of the missile against a non-manoeuvring target. If the target keeps coming at you, the missile can hit him. If he turns, he will lose the missile but also now cannot track you with his radar either. So while the missile may miss, it forces him to turn away and gives you the initiative. I’ve actually had a few Rmax hits so far. This is not to be confused with Raero, which is the diamond on the circle. I’m talking about the first triangle.

If anyone has a better tactic, please share. We all know the radar doesn’t work great yet, and this tactic isn’t perfect. Anyone have anything better to share?

To be clear, I’m not talking about the current radar implementation, but rather what it should perform like when finished...

Rmax is 100% wasted. opponent will get launch notification and turn 2 degrees left. missile trashed. even with best missile in game, AIM-120C, and v. good seeker, RMAX is 100% wasted as even with relatively late pitbull missile is easily trashable by minor, energy neutral maneuver(s) RMAX shots induce no significant defensive maneuvering and illumination for SARH is perfectly possible while under attack by essentially autotrashed missile.

Head on against Mig-29A (with R-27) is almost impossible to make a kill with AIM-7 even from relatively close range (10 nautical miles). I always end up using my AIM-9 for a kill.

 

 

Indeed, the radar looses lock as soon as the bandit starts diving, regardless of my position, even while pointing my nose straight at the target..

(psst - don't point your nose at the target, point it at the steering cue then your missile won't have to turn straight off the rail)

Against AI or in MP ?

That's not my experience against AI.

Always fly with a wingman - then simply tag team, both of you advance to launch range and whoever gets fired at goes defensive, the other guy kills them.

With the current instability of the radar lock it's quite difficult to practice effective F-pole against anything but a willing target. Once that's fixed and IFF is implemented we can start really enjoying SARH engagements.

Rmax is 100% wasted. opponent will get launch notification and turn 2 degrees left. missile trashed. even with best missile in game, AIM-120C, and v. good seeker, RMAX is 100% wasted as even with relatively late pitbull missile is easily trashable by minor, energy neutral maneuver(s) RMAX shots induce no significant defensive maneuvering and illumination for SARH is perfectly possible while under attack by essentially autotrashed missile.

How do you know they fired at Rmax and not (Rmax - 2nm) or (Rmax - 4nm). If you've turned 2 degrees then they're still approaching, now they're even closer and they can fire another missile, and another, and another. The Hornet can carry 6 Sparrows. They can get pretty close with that tactic just keeping you busy with "wasted" missiles.

I can say I've fired beyond Rmax and made the bandit go defensive just as a scare tactic. I got my splash and returned home. I could probably have waited but firing a missile that you know won't hit is still a good bluff if your opponent doesn't know if it's within range or not.

hey guys,

what do you do after the lock is lost (i.e. 20nm) ?

i have the problem that i could not find the target again ...

the radar is in an undefined mode after the lost.

20nm is to far for AACQ and if i select a new AIm-7 the radar is reset and all parameters were gone :(

hey guys,

 

what do you do after the lock is lost (i.e. 20nm) ?

 

i have the problem that i could not find the target again ...

the radar is in an undefined mode after the lost.

 

20nm is to far for AACQ and if i select a new AIm-7 the radar is reset and all parameters were gone :(

Press undesignate, radar will go to previous search mode.

you mean TDC depress ?

or undesignate (AP/NWS) ?

i mean ... if i have used TDC depress the radar picture and the parameters were not the same before STT lock ..

but i will check this :)

hey guys,

 

what do you do after the lock is lost (i.e. 20nm) ?

 

i have the problem that i could not find the target again ...

the radar is in an undefined mode after the lost.

 

20nm is to far for AACQ and if i select a new AIm-7 the radar is reset and all parameters were gone :(

if you don't have visual, skate

How do you know they fired at Rmax and not (Rmax - 2nm) or (Rmax - 4nm). If you've turned 2 degrees then they're still approaching, now they're even closer and they can fire another missile, and another, and another. The Hornet can carry 6 Sparrows. They can get pretty close with that tactic just keeping you busy with "wasted" missiles.

 

 

I can say I've fired beyond Rmax and made the bandit go defensive just as a scare tactic. I got my splash and returned home. I could probably have waited but firing a missile that you know won't hit is still a good bluff if your opponent doesn't know if it's within range or not.

 

the opponent will shoot and crank, which is going to autotrash rmax, -2 and -4 anyway. you aren't going to affect the guy's maneuvering whatsoever, assuming he is focused on you at all and knows your BRA. even relatively close range shots are obvious non-threats relatively high percentage of time due to terrible chaff rejection. RMAX is 100% wasted if opponent knows anything about what he is doing.

Even with an Rmax shot, if you don't go defensive, there's a high probability you're going to get hit... As soon as you go even a little bit defensive, you can defeat it - but if you do nothing, you're toast.

Actually it’s not. Rmax is the max range of the missile against a non-manoeuvring target. If the target keeps coming at you, the missile can hit him. If he turns, he will lose the missile but also now cannot track you with his radar either. So while the missile may miss, it forces him to turn away and gives you the initiative. I’ve actually had a few Rmax hits so far. This is not to be confused with Raero, which is the diamond on the circle. I’m talking about the first triangle.

 

If anyone has a better tactic, please share. We all know the radar doesn’t work great yet, and this tactic isn’t perfect. Anyone have anything better to share?

 

To be clear, I’m not talking about the current radar implementation, but rather what it should perform like when finished...

That's simply not true. If we assume me going defensive means to maneuver in such way that guidance of my own missile is lost, Rmax shot wouldn't make me defensive.

How do you know they fired at Rmax and not (Rmax - 2nm) or (Rmax - 4nm). If you've turned 2 degrees then they're still approaching, now they're even closer and they can fire another missile, and another, and another. The Hornet can carry 6 Sparrows. They can get pretty close with that tactic just keeping you busy with "wasted" missiles.

 

 

I can say I've fired beyond Rmax and made the bandit go defensive just as a scare tactic. I got my splash and returned home. I could probably have waited but firing a missile that you know won't hit is still a good bluff if your opponent doesn't know if it's within range or not.

How do I know? I don't know. I don't care. You see, when someone lock me I assume endless streak of missiles incoming. It will not keep me busy, it will not even bother me until estimated ddistance/daltitude/dspeed condition is meet. And then my missile will be going toward you too so it will be equal game. As bfm fight approaches I would be concerned that I have more weight and drag because of more missiles at my wings.

hey guys,

 

what do you do after the lock is lost (i.e. 20nm) ?

 

i have the problem that i could not find the target again ...

the radar is in an undefined mode after the lost.

 

20nm is to far for AACQ and if i select a new AIm-7 the radar is reset and all parameters were gone :(

If lock is lost inside 20nm and you do not have SA to reacquire in next few seconds and/or you do not have visual contact it is time to disengage and live to fight another day.

Hi guys,

quick question: What does „skating“ and „cranking“ mean?

I‘m following this thread with great interest since - despite being with DCS for more than 10 years now (but entirely in the mud moving business) - I am a real newbie when it comes to air to air combat. In the past mainly flew the A-10C (couple hundred hours so I call this jet home) and more recently the lovely AJS-37 Viggen. Needless to say in either jet I always take great care to avoid any A2A engagements in my SP missions...even though I managed to kill a few Su-25s with the Hog...poor guys :lol:

Now with the Hornet, I feel it is time for me to dive a bit deeper into the A2A arena but I am really just at the veeeery beginning.

For those unfamiliar with Fox1s.

That being said, I find the AIM-7 quite useless (lack of range + alert the target it is being engaged), in the end I just go for a full AIM-9 load and just get in close.

Rmax is 100% wasted. opponent will get launch notification and turn 2 degrees left. missile trashed. even with best missile in game, AIM-120C, and v. good seeker, RMAX is 100% wasted as even with relatively late pitbull missile is easily trashable by minor, energy neutral maneuver(s) RMAX shots induce no significant defensive maneuvering and illumination for SARH is perfectly possible while under attack by essentially autotrashed missile.

this is just not true. People often react to launch warnings, even at rmax. Should they? probably not, but do they? Quite often.

I'll even launch an aim-7 outside rmax against a mirage (before he fires his faster 530) to see if he reacts. if he doesn't, then he either knows what's up, or he'll fly right into it... either way, it's a poker play (like betting on the turn) to get information on your opponent. And, since I"m not paying for the missiles, and I generally have 4 of them... it's a win-win for me.

it's a wasted shot. maximizing your effective time on station and coverage is kind of important senpai, throwing away missiles on shots that will never reach the target in the course of a normal fight is wasteful, even assuming you are only beholden to a virtual taxpayer.

the fact that a vast subgroup of the DCS fighter community are dumb and go defensive for no reason, or fly around on the deck all the time, or like to waste missiles, or what have you doesn't make it a good idea.

you could argue even for firing at RAERO if we had good missiles, but rmax is simply never going to hit anything. ever.

the groundpounders you are supposed to be protecting are shedding tears at the fact that you are going to have to go off-station half an hour earlier than you should have to and they are going to be eating the missiles that you are not around to prevent from hitting them. please, think of the poor mud boys ;_;

poppycock. there's like 3 servers (the more popular ones, even) that are at least as terrain control centric as your average tactical shooter. the fact that everyone plays terrain control as if it's TDM is an issue with player mindset.

@Cik DCS multiplayer is mostly team-deathmatch style of game. Something like Quake 3 with aircraft.

 

There are no groundpounders, there is no station time, there is no mission. Goal is to be first on the leaderboard.

 

Take off, launch, land, rinse and repeat.

 

In that context, launching missile just to read opponent's skill is valid tactic I guess.

I mean, if you frequent those arcade servers. There are others that do use srs and have missions with different flights.

@Cik DCS multiplayer is mostly team-deathmatch style of game. Something like Quake 3 with aircraft.

 

There are no groundpounders, there is no station time, there is no mission. Goal is to be first on the leaderboard.

 

Take off, launch, land, rinse and repeat.

 

In that context, launching missile just to read opponent's skill is valid tactic I guess.

To be fair you have BluFlag and DynamicDCS which are all about terrain control where you need all roles fulfilled to win the "war".

This "created" a mission for me as in, escort the AWACS, so our GCI can send the CAP effectively so the CAS and STRIKE crafts can kill ground targets for the Helis to capture ground.

Is loft implemented yet? Has anyone played with loft for your Rmax shots?