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Old 08-14-2019, 09:13 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla View Post
F-86F and F-5E-3 both had Mid-Life Updates/Changes that did not make it to the entire fleet.

Some F-86F's got New wings, other's didnt.



The others that didnt , are older than block 25's, F86FF25- F35 did, this is relevant because we have a F-86F35.





In USAF versions its very much noted that all eventually got this upgrade..

IF anything it would be far easier to argue that not all F86F's with new wing got Aim9 upgrade.


After a certain point the revised SAC's for F86F25 and upwards totally negate listing the performance charts and stats pertaining to 6/3 winged F86F sabre or even the older Wing slatted versions. They only list the performance charts which are valid for sabres reffited with leading edge F40 type wing slats. Hmm i wonder why? Answer is pretty obvious.

So basically these aught to go bye bye. I dont know what BST reasoning was for the block 35 ( Guess they really wanted LABS with no tactical nuke + bombing computer?) , but if they really wanted a Korean war era version to fight Mig15bis, it should have been the F86F block 30. That was the last version to see use in korea, and that too eventually got F40 type wing configuration, as well as Aim9B upgrades for some. However the simplest fix solution, to otherwsie make F86F block 35 authentic for the time period it still has the 6/3 wing is to remove Aim9B and its related avionics. Which means.






otherwise F86F35 would require a F40 Slatted wing modification, for the aim9 feature to not be anachronistic.
















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F-5E's Case, the USAF F-5E-3's of the Period Modelled did not have AGM-65.

Thats true no AGM65

But neither did they have AN/ALE40 CM nor AN/ALR 87 RWR, and yet....
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:04 PM   #52
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Although not related to the main crux of the argument.

IIl also throws in that DCS F86F is missing loads of ordinance types that were never added. Irregardless the other stuff, all F86F25 and later could use the ordinace types.









We most notably lack ( AN/M57) 250 pound ( AN/M65) 1000 pound bombs, both ww2 box fin type and upgraded with conical fins, which was an interim solution to addressing older bomb design limitations until MK80 series was designed and put into service for later aircraft.

Obviously Napalm isn't feasible atm due to lack of fire modeling effects, but could be added when ready.



example of AN/M65 reffited with conical fin






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Old 08-15-2019, 01:33 AM   #53
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Quote:
ALL F-35's ARE BEING
.

Which means it was in progress as the time of the manual printing,

The Transition was never finished, and was optional to allies/export variants.

I'm also pretty sure that the Block and Modelling was done based on a restored F-86F and Manual Data Available.

Quote:
The production run of the F-86F Sabre finally ended with the delivery of the last F-86F-35-NA in August of 1954. At that time, it was assumed that this would be the end of the line for the day-fighter Sabre, as plans were already being made for the F-86F Sabre to be replaced in service by supersonic types such as the F-100. However, the USAF was finding that it was impossible to meet its commitments to Asian allies such as Nationalist China and Japan by using the surplus F-86Fs already available from USAF stocks. Consequently, the F-86F was put back into production to meet this demand.

The new model was known as the NA-227 to the company and as the F-86F-40-NA on USAF rolls. A contract for 215 was formally approved on June 27, 1955. USAF serials were 55-3816/4030. 65 more -40s were added to the contract on March 27, 1956, with USAF serials being 55-4983/5047. USAF serials were assigned to these planes because they were purchased with MDAP funds, even though they were not intended for USAF service.

The first F-86F-40-NA (serial number 55-3816) rolled out of the factory in October of 1955. The new F-86F was basically similar to the earlier F-86F Sabres and was powered by the same J47-GE-27 of the earlier Fs and had the fuselage, weapons system, and flight controls of the standard F, but had a different wing. It had the "6-3" extended wing leading edge of the earlier Fs, but leading edge slats were once again fitted in an attempt to improve the low speed handling properties. In addition, the wing tips were extended, increasing the wing area from 302.3 square feet to 313.4 square feet and the wing span from 37.12 feet to 39.11 feet. The original F-86F aileron was part of the wingtip, while the F-40 aileron was separate.

The wing slats and the increased wing area markedly improved the handling, especially at low speeds. The low-speed roll-and-yaw problem which had plagued the "6-3" F-86F Sabres was largely eliminated. Stalling speed was reduced from 144 mph to 124 mph, and 800 feet were shaved from the takeoff ground run. The slat actuators and wingtip extensions added about 250 pounds to the weight, but performance was almost identical to that of a standard F-86F.

These improvements in handling and turning ability led the USAF to decide to upgrade many of their existing F-86F-25 and F-86F-30 Sabres to F-86F-40 standards. North American supplied the Air Force with modification kits containing the new wing leading edge, slat assemblies, wingtip extensions, and new ailerons. Many Sabre-equipped foreign air forces also upgraded their Sabres to F-40 standards through use of these kits. Only the Canadair and Commonwealth Sabres were not equipped with F-40 wing kits, although both types could accept the installation if needed.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:46 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkateZilla View Post
.

Which means it was in progress as the time of the manual printing,

The Transition was never finished, and was optional to allies/export variants.

I'm also pretty sure that the Block and Modelling was done based on a restored F-86F and Manual Data Available.

Maybe i missing something Care to elaborate more why copy pasting an excerpt from Joe Baugher? It doesn't specifically say all of them werent upgraded. OR especially the ones that were still retained longer than 1954 in USAF or ANG service. That would otherwise be an assumption. IF we use that as a standards lets assume export F86F's may have been upgraded to more modern sidewinders like the Aim9E, before being sold back to the USAF or something

but still that doesn't say otherwise that USAF didnt upgrade all of their own blocks 25-35 Sabres. WE should be looking at a USAF model of an F86F35, not exported versions of it or earlier versions. F86F35 would have been one of the later models of the F series to be completely sold off, given that main reason for producing block 35 was so the USAF had requirement for addressing the nuclear delivery role, Hence the LOW Altitude bombing system installed for toss bombing tactical nukes. So even if the F86F was no longer relevant as Fighter, it still had uses as a Nuke toss bomber untill enough Fighter bomber F100C/D huns came about. LABS would be uninstalled for non NATO allies. Block 35's werent that much produced because F86H and eventually F100, but the F86F block 35's soldiered on in USAF/ ANG service well into the late 50s, in some cases into the 60s given all the problems that HUns had in thier early life.


After all the manuals clearly state "USAF series" aircraft for the changes implemented.

http://www.forgottenjets.warbirdsres....org/F-86.html


Example:

F-86F-35-NA s/n 53-1133
*USAF 561st FBS (388th FBW).
*1955: USAF 563rd FBS (388th FBW).
*USAF 7244th ABG.
*3/1961: Transferred to the Saudi AF.
*10/1968: Transferred to the Portuguese AF as spare parts.



F-86F-35-NA s/n 53-1122
*USAF 388th FBW.
*6/1969: Transferred to the Saudi AF.
*7 Squadron as 705.
*Assigned as a ground trainer to the Technical Training Institute at Dharan AB.






SAC from 1956, the last flight manual for F86F series i have is printed 1960 and was revised up to 1971.


Again id like to see this exact Museum piece that happens to be an former USAF F86F block 35 that have korean era 6/3 wing and in turn have Aim9B modification which was implemented post Wing modification. IF manual documentation was limited, than i dont know what to say. I found technical manuals from online sources, without much effort. The manual Has Performance charts for Sabres with the new wing type.

IT would be a different scenario vice versa, as not all sabres were upgraded with Aim9B before being sold off, given that sabres were no longer being used for AS, and outclassed by other platforms.

So ultimately it still makes more sense as the simplest soultion, to remove Aim9B and related avionics, to authentically represent a unmodified 1953-54 F86F35 utilizing korean era 6/3 wing. IN an ideal world it would be nice to split into two version, F86F35 ( early) F86F35 (mod F40 wing) with the aim9B upgrade, to represnt this late model , and more representative of the type of sabres used post korea by export users that got such specific blocks., but flight modeling changes require much more time and effort than a a few modest 3d modeling changing to avionics panels.

In turns of aerodynamics and overall performance, the F86F stays the same as the block 30 that saw use in Korea, but is more preferable to stay even without Aim9's because Block 35's had new manual bombing device ( fore pipper adjustment) and the bombing computer.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:58 AM   #55
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Or, could we accept that it falls within the realms of plausibility, and that the current version caters to a larger crowd, who may want to simulate Sabres of varying nationalities?
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:16 PM   #56
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Or, could we accept that it falls within the realms of plausibility, and that the current version caters to a larger crowd, who may want to simulate Sabres of varying nationalities?
You could also do that with a f86f,s modified with f40 wing. In fact that would be fitting much more to export Sabres, f86f35 block in particular. With aim9 capability.

That being said there no environment for foreign conflicts anyways. We lack a Korean war scenario, but let's be honest if the f86fs main contemporary is the mig15bis, and not the mig17f, then it's a already more fitting for Korean era engagements than it is for small foreign conflicts like 1958 taiwan strait crisis or others.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:36 PM   #57
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Exactly... The Sabre isnt’t perfect and doesn’t fit any map perfectly.
A certain amount of make-believe is needed, and that’s my point.
Would a certain version or sub version of the Sabre actually add that much to the simulated experience..? I doubt it.
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Old 08-15-2019, 09:44 PM   #58
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Quote:
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Exactly... The Sabre isnt’t perfect and doesn’t fit any map perfectly.
A certain amount of make-believe is needed, and that’s my point.
Would a certain version or sub version of the Sabre actually add that much to the simulated experience..? I doubt it.
Look at the level of standard in precise variation being applied to ED's F/A18C, or the upcoming F16C. OR 3rd party like HEatblur and their F14 tomcat(s), or for that matter DCS P51D25 and D30.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:17 AM   #59
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Yes.
None of those are 100% exact simulations of their real counterparts. And they too simulate a specific configuration which won’t fit in every situation.

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Old 08-16-2019, 07:43 AM   #60
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