Your Thoughts: Is the F-16 Worth Time Investment Now, or Just Wait

It's close to kicking the Hornet from my most fav jet list. :pilotfly:

So yeah, I'd buy it. In fact, I did! :thumbup:

If you have VR then absolutely. It is really the best cockpit in VR of the modern jets (that bubble canopy). Is it complete, absolutely not, no where near.

If I hadn’t ordered at 20% off then I would probably wait unless I absolutely needed the Viper now. However if you have it then why not jump in and see what you think.

Before the Viper I did most of my flying SP in the M2000.

I have found the F-16 one of the most accessible modules so far. Most systems are fairly intuitive, the cockpit is in English, and there is loads of documentation out there, both real-world and from the sim that shall not be named. I'm sure things will change and I fully understand that this is an unfinished product (a concept which for whatever reason, some users still struggle to grasp) but there is more than enough functionality to fly it, and even to fight it to a degree.

I didn't buy the F-18 or F-14 (just never really had an affinity with those a/c in the same way as the 16 tbh) so can't make a comparison with them regarding level of completeness at release (or even at this stage) but I certainly feel that as an EA module I would much rather be flying it, even in an unfinished state, than not.

TLDR: There is not a huge amount of time investment required at this stage so get flying it.

In it's current state there is no way it's worth 80 bucks. I bought it in early access to save the 20 percent knowing full well it would sit unused for at least 6 months. if you missed the boat on EA pricing I would wait for a more fleshed out module. If you start now you will end up having to relearn a good deal as placeholder stuff is fully implemented and HOTAS commands that are incorrectly implemented are changed. (probably multiple times) before the final iteration.

In it's current state there is no way it's worth 80 bucks. I bought it in early access to save the 20 percent knowing full well it would sit unused for at least 6 months. if you missed the boat on EA pricing I would wait for a more fleshed out module. If you start now you will end up having to relearn a good deal as placeholder stuff is fully implemented and HOTAS commands that are incorrectly implemented are changed. (probably multiple times) before the final iteration.

If it's not worth $80 now, it wasn't worth $60 when you got it either.

If it's not worth $80 now, it wasn't worth $60 when you got it either.

fair point. I knew I was going to buy it anyway at some point so why not save the 20 bucks , but I get your point. I do like to support ED when i can though, which is why I have a few modules, that I probably overpaid for, collecting dust right now. ;) cough* looking at you combined arms.

If it's not worth $80 now, it wasn't worth $60 when you got it either.

I don't think it's worth even $60 right now...someday yes, but we are far from it. I view early access as supporting ED and future development, so I didn't have a problem paying that, however; the F-16 has taken the term "early access" to the extreme.

We are a month into early access and still do not have a complete external model, lights, and artwork. I understand the need for early access and support it, but there has to be a minimum standard. I don't think the F-16 meets that standard and to be still saying that a month after release is unacceptable. I would like for ED to demonstrate an acceptable level of quality and development for early access products.

I read a lot that someone wants to support ED. A good thing but how does buying early access at a discount support any more than someone waiting and paying full price? ED still gets the money but gets more from those who wait.

ED needs the money now, hence the whole reason for early access, and super early access of the F-16. If they didn't need the financial support, they could afford to wait a little longer and release a more complete and polished product. This is all fine of course and I have no problem supporting them, but I do need a better return on my investment than what the F-16 has so far provided.

I must have missed ED needing the money now. Where is that?

I thought early access was to get a lot of feedback while the plane was being developed?

I must have missed ED needing the money now. Where is that?

 

I thought early access was to get a lot of feedback while the plane was being developed?

I believe that is an assumption based on the belief that if they were flush with cash they never would have released the viper in the state they did. of course only they know for sure but it certainly seems plausible.

In my opinion It is not that they are in desperate need of the money. But developing of such a complex sim takes time and personal! And this takes money.

And again: The Viper is not "rushed" or "thrown out in a hurry". It is "early access". You could also compare this with a Kickstarter.

Yes, it is time and money consuming. By purchasing EA you support the developers and become a part of making this happen. If you don't want to, you don't need to.

I want to, and I'm happy I did!

Here is my two pesos:

It's your money, if you can afford it now, buy it and enjoy it like thousands of us are doing now.

If you have any doubts , don't.

You're gong to buy it anyway, so just buy it. Even if you are not going to put the time into it where its at in development, I'd still buy it for the sake of contributing to this very niche corner of the market. Like a few previous posters have already noted, it helps with development.

Personally, I would wait. You no longer get the early bird discount nor sale discounts.so no reason to jump on it now.

Don't get me wrong I bought it, but I wouldn't again.

There are so many deal breakers as far as I care I don't even go near it.

And it's the small things that get me frustrated

The lack of a gunsight, the radar ANT ELEV not working properly and of course the lack of a damage model (even though I did see a wing fall of in a recent GR video, so we're getting somewhere).

This ^

As with the Hornet (when it first released), it is not so much that it is not worth the investment money-wise. It is that it is so bare-bones that it is not quite worth the investment in time and attention at this particular time due to the sheer number of functionality gaps that one will encounter in even "casual" use.

For those that just want to fly a F-16 in any state, it is fine. You can take-off, fly around, and do some VERY simple combat stuff but its functionality gaps are huge and any attempt at a mission built around the real life F-16C Block 50's capability would quickly fall apart.

The other issue (at least for me) is that I tend to really get into learning systems and as I learned when the Harrier first released as well as the Hornet, it was kinda frustrating to settle down for a evening of learning procedures only to find that there is only a hour or so worth of actually learning to do before you hit systems that just aren't there or are not in a state where they can be meaningfully learned.

In the end, I don't regret buying the F-16 in the same way that I don't regret buying the Hornet. I know what early access means and I know that I am setting myself up for a year+ wait before I can do anything with the module that will be interesting to me. Still, I do hope that in the case of the F-16, it doesn't take a year or more to get it to a state where even the (still incomplete) Hornet is at. I am pretty patient but like everyone else, there are limits.

I would keep the F-16C still in "oven". Of course as you missed the Pre-Order phase, there is no sale for a 12-18 months, so you can buy it any given time now for full price but with EA label.

I have dozen made missions for testing between F/A-18C, AV-8B and F-16C with various loadouts etc for training purposes. And must say that F-16C doesn't feel at all as good as F/A-18C to fly and operate, and yet both of those lacks the fun that AV-8B does.

From all three the F-16C is just somewhat "least performing" even in its basic requirements like A-G tasks. And maybe the AV-8B loses its benefit once the A-G radar comes around.

Maybe reason why I like F/A-18C more than F-16C is that it somewhat is far more capable in the A-A tasks and especially as strike aircraft, where need to penetrate the enemy air patrols, then avoid air defense and get bombs on target and escape. AV-8B can't do that at all so effectively, but something in F-16C is holding back even when it has same loadout as F/A-18C.

But nothing really denies you buy it now, fly it if you like and if you don't like, then keep it in the hangar waiting updates. As you don't benefit from the price sense at all, just your will to jump in it when updates comes.

The Viper is ED's most important module from a mass appeal standpoint, and they know it.

Everything's that's missing right now is on their to-do list. They've stated they are working on them as fast as they can

And this is why Many Hornet pilots (especially those who don’t have the Viper) feel betrayed.

If you have VR then absolutely. It is really the best cockpit in VR of the modern jets (that bubble canopy). Is it complete, absolutely not, no where near.

 

If I hadn’t ordered at 20% off then I would probably wait unless I absolutely needed the Viper now. However if you have it then why not jump in and see what you think.

This was the only point tempting me... that canopy in Vr. But after their treatment of the Hornet I decided to be strong and not buy it. Very glad I didn’t know seeing how half baked it was, and the impact it’s had on my Hornet.

And this is why Many Hornet pilots (especially those who don’t have the Viper) feel betrayed.

Seriously? Dude you need to chill out. I’m sure there were many good reasons for ED releasing the Viper when they did. Possibly because this wonderful sim we are enjoying is free and the only way they can make money and afford to pay their staff is if they can sell product. ED is a business and at the end of the day we don’t get to know all of the reasons why something is released the way it is.

Combat sim is a niche within a niche. DCS is not COD, they don’t sell eleven million copies of something.

When you purchased the Hornet nobody promised you that it was going to be the sole focus of ED to get it finished before moving on to anything else, I think looking at the timescale involved in getting the Hornet out of early access it’s clear to see that they needed to release another product in order to keep money coming in, to drive further development. Hornet development has greatly accelerated Viper development to get to the same state, and going forward a lot of things will be run in parallel between the two projects. You haven’t been “betrayed” and to believe you have is to completely miss the bigger picture.

And tbh. I enjoy the Viper, yes it’s not finished but I seem to be one of the few people who understand the concept of early access. There will be bugs and things missing, just smile and enjoy what’s there and working.

Seriously? Dude you need to chill out. I’m sure there were many good reasons for ED releasing the Viper when they did. Possibly because this wonderful sim we are enjoying is free and the only way they can make money and afford to pay their staff is if they can sell product. ED is a business and at the end of the day we don’t get to know all of the reasons why something is released the way it is.

 

Combat sim is a niche within a niche. DCS is not COD, they don’t sell eleven million copies of something.

 

When you purchased the Hornet nobody promised you that it was going to be the sole focus of ED to get it finished before moving on to anything else, I think looking at the timescale involved in getting the Hornet out of early access it’s clear to see that they needed to release another product in order to keep money coming in, to drive further development. Hornet development has greatly accelerated Viper development to get to the same state, and going forward a lot of things will be run in parallel between the two projects. You haven’t been “betrayed” and to believe you have is to completely miss the bigger picture.

 

And tbh. I enjoy the Viper, yes it’s not finished but I seem to be one of the few people who understand the concept of early access. There will be bugs and things missing, just smile and enjoy what’s there and working.

Very well said! I'm sort of new in this community but all of the constant complaining is very off putting. There's more than enough modules to have fun with. I have 10 and enjoy them all including the Viper! Make lemonade!

I’m sure there were many good reasons for ED releasing the Viper when they did.

 

When you purchased the Hornet nobody promised you that it was going to be the sole focus of ED to get it finished before moving on to anything else

 

I think looking at the timescale involved in getting the Hornet out of early access it’s clear to see that they needed to release another product in order to keep money coming in

 

Hornet development has greatly accelerated Viper development to get to the same state, and going forward a lot of things will be run in parallel between the two projects.

1) I'm sure there were too - but I don't have to like the fact that it has undeniably impacted Hornet development when we were told previously it wouldn't, and it's a state of affairs that has now lasted for at least two months (that we were told about)

2) Nobody promised me it would be the sole focus of ED - and that's not what I expected. What I expected was that they managed projects so that the 'first' product to launch would normally be the one on which new systems/capabilities would be enabled first. At this time, we still haven't been told if the Hornet systems/avionics devs have moved back onto it - which is clear that they haven't as only (mostly niche) weaponry is being updated. I also don't have to like the way many of the functionalities on the Hornet are incomplete like the AZ/EL page etc.

3) Quite how you can say the hornet 'helped accelerate Viper development' when the Viper has an INS enabled, a SAM mode and will get TWS first, along with the TGP (or at least markpoint) HUD designation. This shows that the rule at the moment is that the Viper gets first crack of the whip, and it's fair to say that as the Viper is the 'poster child' for many - who is to say that that state of affairs will be unwound? Can we expect the Viper to get everything first now? Just look at the latest Newsletter.. while the Hornet TWS is mentioned, it is after a LONG line of completing weapons, and introducing new ones, which infers that there is NO ONE working on the Hornet Avionics/Radar and is not expected to be for some time...

There may be very good reasons for this from a development stand point, but ED aren't saying that. What they are saying is 'one benefits the other' but in that case why not complete a Hornet system and then port the equivelant new systems onto the Viper?

Again - no one promised me exclusive development of the Hornet, but it would be fair to expect first deployed, first completed, and right now it feels anything but that, so I absolutely don't have to like the treatment the Hornet has got as a result of the Viper being released far too early.

And so, yes - I do feel betrayed. Not because anyone 'promised' me anything - but because I had an expectation that ED would complete the Hornet in a reasonable time frame - and that patience is wearing extremely thin. In addition I have an expectation of 'fair' - and while a temporary reallocation of resources to help get the Viper out of the door is acceptable, the length of time it is turning into and the poor messaging around this space deepens that feeling.

You may disagree with me (obviously you do) - but I am not alone in this feeling, and if ED continues down the path of needing to push out ever more bare bones modules to keep the lights on, then more and more will start feeling this way.

What if the Viper gets pushed to the wayside for the Hind? Or the Mosquito? Or the F4 that this forum clamours for? Or a Pave Hawk - or anything else? ED (and this community) have to face into the fact that there is a problem with this business model - and we shouldn't be begging ED for 'more' modules - we should be begging them to finish what they've started, and fix the core issues of the sim (poor ATC, unsynced clouds, poor missile flight/guidance model, poor spotting, poor ai, poor damage model etc etc). If their business model needs to change to enable that, so be it.

Very well said! I'm sort of new in this community but all of the constant complaining is very off putting. There's more than enough modules to have fun with. I have 10 and enjoy them all including the Viper! Make lemonade!

How many of those ten are complete may I ask? Because therein lies the problem.

How many of those ten are complete may I ask? Because therein lies the problem.

I couldn't begin to tell you which ones complete. All I know is, I don't take any of this too seriously as it is just a game and I'm having fun. I was in the Military:), I have patience for days....easy like Sunday morning!