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Old 07-30-2020, 02:19 AM   #1
TheHighwayman
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Default Looking for critique of BFM

Howdy!

I am an experienced DCS pilot, and mission builder, but I am not that great at dogfighting.

I am trying to learn how to dogfight. I've watched the legendary Falcon 2.0 video, as well as several others.

I set up a dogfight against myself and another F-16 on expert AI mode, and tried to master the F-16 corner speeds, so you will see me turning alot in the attached tacview.

I am seeking a critique and any tips some of the veteran pilots here might have.

I'm tired of losing to the AI in all but the most lopsided engagements.

This fight is probably one of the first I was able to "draw" with the AI. Normally I just die.

We both ran out of fuel after about 10 minutes with heavy burner usage. Engagement is guns only, no stores, pylons removed.

Feedback welcome, please. Thank you!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bxb...ew?usp=sharing

(Tacview posted to my Google Drive since DCS forums won't allow a tacview attachment.)
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Old 07-30-2020, 04:32 AM   #2
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Hi there. I may be able to help. PM sent.
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Last edited by Low Blow; 07-30-2020 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:23 AM   #3
skyblazer1
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Look up control zone BFM. The v65th has some great BFM tutorial videos on YouTube as well.

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Old 07-31-2020, 11:27 AM   #4
deadpool
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Don't dogfight in the Viper.
I mean it is surely modelled right in DCS and that has shown the world that it's good at shooting missiles high and from afar. But dogfighting isn't one of its strengths!
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:09 PM   #5
Florence201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpool View Post
Don't dogfight in the Viper.
I mean it is surely modelled right in DCS and that has shown the world that it's good at shooting missiles high and from afar. But dogfighting isn't one of its strengths!
That is a unfair and inaccurate statement. BFM in the Viper is possible and if you know what you’re doing against a known adversary, the Viper can hold its own. We have some very good adversary pilots in my online Sqn who are very capable in an F16
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence201 View Post
That is a unfair and inaccurate statement. BFM in the Viper is possible and if you know what you’re doing against a known adversary, the Viper can hold its own. We have some very good adversary pilots in my online Sqn who are very capable in an F16
+1
Not a seasoned dogfighter but I feel more confident inside a Viper cockpit when doing BFM.
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Old 08-01-2020, 12:59 AM   #7
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if pilot is at same skill, F-16(DCS) will always lose.
that why you not see good pilot use F-16 in DCS dogfight competition events.
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Old 08-01-2020, 01:11 AM   #8
skyblazer1
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I disagree with this.... Viper in DCS flown per the 3-3 is a sweet BFM machine.

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Old 08-01-2020, 02:18 AM   #9
Alfas
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F-16 is designed to do 9G turn fight but you cant do it in DCS, except you turn off G effect.

so you need to turn it off to do proper dogfight with F-16
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadpool View Post
Don't dogfight in the Viper.
I mean it is surely modelled right in DCS and that has shown the world that it's good at shooting missiles high and from afar. But dogfighting isn't one of its strengths!
Like the opposite....
F-16 is not for it BVR capabilities or altitude, but it is great WVR fighter.

When it comes to fly against AI, like 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 4, it is easier to do in Viper than Hornet. Not much, but little.

My one of go-to training missions for warmup and quick swirl is against 11x F-15C with AIM-9M and first four with AIM-7M and AIM-120B, then next four are with AIM-120C, and after them there is coming one more and lastly F-14B with two AIM-54. It all starts with F-14B with guns and AIM-9 first, where it is given 3 km separation at same altitude and speed at 135 degree your right (4-5'clock)

The idea of mission is to train in:
- timing, as you have limited time per target or need to share time for multiple.
- situational awareness, as passive and active sensors are critical, even more is visual spotting, and building mental picture of possibilities.
- cockpit management, as you are switching between targeting modes and weapons, you might have one change to deal threats.
- storage management, you need to make decision on each threat what weapon to use.
- most importantly maneuvering and position, you need to change everything on each start, as AI doesn't fly same way all the time as your initial engagement defines a lot your starting position with others, so it becomes quickly random.

You have about 2 minutes time to deal it before AIM-7 or AIM-120B hits you, as first F-15 arrives at the range. After that it is typically 30-60 seconds before first pair of F-15 gets on your range, then another pair is usually flanking etc.

As each starts in the air at various ranges and they need to fly at you, you are more free to apply various aggressive and defensive strategies to survive.
If you decide to just run at wrong time, they swarm you. If you go over aggressive they will saturate you. If you can't position yourself and deal each phase in time limits depending what is situations, you die.

It is far easier with hornet because loadout, as only two is required to be killed with guns as it has advantage in BVR. But when it is in WVR, far easier with Viper, but you can't carry 10+2 with Viper like with hornet, so you are eventually out gunned quickly as you can't deal all in WVR "guns only".

As I have multiple aircrafts to choose at start, I can compare them easily. Su-27S is best to fly, but it is not capable defend itself because lack of AIM-9X. And when need to deal 2-3 different directions, it can't do it as you have only two R-27ET that you can launch and forget, SARH really has disadvantage in such scenarios.

M2000 is dream to fly, but you die after 2-3 because you don't have enough missiles and 530D just doesn't cut. If you get to guns, it is easy.

JF-17 has not even been added to it, but I don't expect much in that, as I don't have enough time in it to be fluent with controls.

MiG-29S is own thing because R-77 and TWS capabilities, but you can't deal many more as you don't get visual picture like in Su-27S as the HDD is on HUD repeater mode only.

Twice I have completed it without dying. Both with hornet. Usually I die (respawn allowed) at 2-3 times, in bad days 7-10 times, sharing lifes.

I have come to conclusions that if I would have a human wingman, it would become far easier as dealing all is superior, but not just by positioning but as well that you can spam first threats to get your weight down quickly.
And Viper wouldn't be in disadvantage at that moment.

The hornet requires little more extending in some situations than viper, so viper is better in "group control".

But once hornet receives final JHMCS features like seeing threats and targets etc on it, it becomes easy. Even boresight radar page will become very handy.

I still don't fully understand the fan base for F-16C, than by the look. As to me it still feels overrated for anything else than WVR and A-G.
It is like having a cool sports car, but you can't go anywhere with your friends as it just has two seats, but when it comes to racing, it surely does give run for it's money.
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