Maybe im just sensitive...but why does everyone think the DCS A-10C is so incomplete?

Ive been noticing so many people saying how early in the building process the DCS A-10C is, and how its to early to ask questions about something as simple as a manual. Im personally very surprised at how FAR along they are with this product. Maybe im just very misinformed, but they have already exhibited live demos, TWO producer notes, and seem to already know what will work in the game and what wont. For petes sake, they already confirmed a 64 bit version along the way. Please, do tell me if im wrong, but id say that the product is not all THAT far away from being complete. Lol, I am prepared to get flamed for this post but I must exert my opinion.

It's fine to be asking about the manual because at this late stage its probably only testing an bug fixing and no functional changes. If it was released now early I would order it instantly to read and learn while I am waiting. In that regard it makes sense to lock in your buying market early.

It's fine to be asking about the manual because at this late stage its probably only testing an bug fixing and no functional changes. If it was released now early I would order it instantly to read and learn while I am waiting. In that regard it makes sense to lock in your buying market early.

I would as well no doubt. They did say that it is not complete though so I would rather have the complete manual rather than a portion of it, lol.

Black Shark manual came out before release in PDF version didn't it? Printed definitely came out after. I would assume the same just because of third party assembling/printing/binding etc.

Not bad observations, but 'not that far away' means different things to different people. Wags has said it'll be available this year, barring problems.

Ive been noticing so many people saying how early in the building process the DCS A-10C is, and how its to early to ask questions about something as simple as a manual. Im personally very surprised at how FAR along they are with this product. Maybe im just very misinformed, but they have already exhibited live demos, TWO producer notes, and seem to already know what will work in the game and what wont. For petes sake, they already confirmed a 64 bit version along the way. Please, do tell me if im wrong, but id say that the product is not all THAT far away from being complete. Lol, I am prepared to get flamed for this post but I must exert my opinion.

Yup, I've noted twice where he said they're still on for '10.

Granted they've thrown out teasers & now notes, but that still doesn't signify a "thumbs up"...yet. I certainly don't think it's "incomplete" to a gross degree, but there are obvious things that haven't been finalized, as pointed out in both producer's notes.

"It will happen when it happens".

Lol, I am prepared to get flamed for this post but I must exert my opinion.

Let me be the first .... you need to take a break from thread starting .... troll some girls instead.

Alright, let's not go down this path.

I'd hate to have to start cleaning/closing threads, warning/banning people etc etc. Hell, I even hate having to say this right now. You should all know better! :P

Let me be the first .... you need to take a break from thread starting .... troll some girls instead.

Im not "trolling" anyone. Trolling would be if I started a new thread called "RELEASE DATE CONFIRMED OMG" and then wrote in it "Can I haz teh reconz?" 500 times over.

A big give-away is the producer describing the code as alpha. ED have to get it into beta, then the release candidates, that wont happen any time soon.

I think it's perfectly ok to speculate and nobody should flame you for it.

Just don't expect ED to give any dates or timetables until everything is rock-solid. Let's call it learning from bad experiences. :music_whistling:

I was actually surprised to hear Wags call it an alpha build since in my mind the alpha build of a game was a very unfinished proof-of-concept with blocky stand-ins, missing textures and very few finished features. Then I thought about it and it makes sense considering that, in most of the beta testing I've been in for other games, the beta build often plays like the finished game, only with a lot of bugs, and I'm guessing there's a lot of stuff that's not implemented yet in that alpha build used for the producer's notes.

I'm still amazed by the fact that it doesn't take a full three years or longer to create an aircraft with the DCS level of detail, though. I guess ED knows what they're doing.

I think the fact that DCSW is based on a DCS:Ka50 world and TBS aircraft helped. But somehow I have a feeling that we, non-military customers can be more demanding that Air National Guard, that's why they are polishing all the features, working on better mission planner, campaigns, AI...

Its still potential 5 MONTHS off from shipping, alot could change between now & then. I've worked in games dev for over 12 years and its only in the last few months of a project does everything come together, until then its usually a mess (and DSC A10 does NOT look like a mess at this point!) and I take it sim dev is even more different from a 'regular' game, so what you see might resemble a finished product but you can bet they will be tweaking it like mad to get it just right or maybe even adding small things. Bare in mind its also based on the militarys desktop trainer and the standards for that vs/commercial simulation for public consumption will have differences they need to address..Im sure?

Ive been noticing so many people saying how early in the building process the DCS A-10C is, and how its to early to ask questions about something as simple as a manual. Im personally very surprised at how FAR along they are with this product. Maybe im just very misinformed, but they have already exhibited live demos, TWO producer notes, and seem to already know what will work in the game and what wont. For petes sake, they already confirmed a 64 bit version along the way. Please, do tell me if im wrong, but id say that the product is not all THAT far away from being complete. Lol, I am prepared to get flamed for this post but I must exert my opinion.

..., and seem to already know what will work in the game and what wont. For petes sake, they already confirmed a 64 bit version along the way...

For any serious software development those are decisions that happen early on in the design process

A good software development proverb:

The first 90% take 90% of the time.

The last 10% take the other 90% of time.

:)

Oh, and cctoide, you're roughly right. Alpha code is a stage that is not feature-complete (though generally "usable" if not anywhere near stable or optimized), Beta code is close to or at feature-complete and is the code that optimization and bugfixing is done in earnest for. Then comes the RC's (release candidates) where the poor programmers end up working 18 hours a day 6 days a week to meet the deadline.

However, there is a lot of variation in what is what. Some companies might call someone else's alpha a beta, some companies (like google) seem to like to have the beta name until Klendathu is really really REALLY nuked which never happens. Some use the question whether "it's good enough to show anyone" to designate whether it's moved to beta. There's no one completely right definition, but that's been mine. :)

Some other good words to know for those who are interested:

Feature-Freeze: the point at which the final feature list for the application is decided. Basically a control measure that project leads and designers use to make sure the app doesn't stay in development for millions of years. (Wiki "feature-creep") Note that even if the Feature-Freeze has been reached, there can still be feature deletions or emergency additions, but the general principle is that you now have your shopping list and you're going with it.

Feature-Complete: this is when all features decided at the point of Freeze have been implemented into the application. There's a lot of philosophy going into this stage as well, tbh, since is it "complete" if the code is in there but it's very bugged and doesn't work? Personally I'd say yes - the fact that it's bugged is something for Q/A and testers to look closer into and help the programmers fix, but if the logic is there it's complete even if there might be a misplaced semicolon somewhere bad.

And really. Misplaced semicolons. Hate them. ;)

Maybe im just sensitive...but why does everyone think the DCS A-10C is so incomplete?

Because it's an internet forum and people only say positive things to suck up to try for more info/benefits.

If the development project doesn't fulfill all needs to all people, for instance "this is a bug - i noticed a street light in one mission wasn't on when the rest were" then it's a forum for demanding that change and then chin-stroking and speculating in depth as to why it wasn't included in the first place and why it should be, because it'd be so 'immersive'.

How does ED manage the feature list? We use Atlassian's JIRA tool at my work and it's great for capturing customer input (customers can vote on features so the developers can get a sense of what is most important). We also use the Greenhopper plugin for Agile development. I'm not associated with Atlassian just curious if they have a formal web based way to manage the feature list instead of forum posts.

How does ED manage the feature list? We use Atlassian's JIRA tool at my work and it's great for capturing customer input (customers can vote on features so the developers can get a sense of what is most important). We also use the Greenhopper plugin for Agile development. I'm not associated with Atlassian just curious if they have a formal web based way to manage the feature list instead of forum posts.

I doubt it's that complicated for them. It's probably just a group of managers and producers that get together on a regular basis and decide this feature makes sense, that feature doesn't make sense, is too difficult to program, too confusing, whatever.

It's not like they're a company producing commercial software for a number of large corporations who pay millions of dollars for that software and therefore there may be a need for sophisticated software to track what features their customers desire. Even their TBS software probably only has a few customers that even though they pay a lot of money for it, are probably so few that they can use an informal mechnisim to agree on features needed.

They are using Mantis for bug tracking. Feature lists are completely internal. The forums are perused and features from the wish list are added to the internal list and prioritized. The product is not community driven (although the community does get some informal input), and as such there is no voting for features. The features are decided and set internally just as described above.

The exception I suspect is TBS, where they have to meet SRD requirements.

How does ED manage the feature list? We use Atlassian's JIRA tool at my work and it's great for capturing customer input (customers can vote on features so the developers can get a sense of what is most important). We also use the Greenhopper plugin for Agile development. I'm not associated with Atlassian just curious if they have a formal web based way to manage the feature list instead of forum posts.

geesh,,, there's only a few months left in the year and the A-10C is on target, so why bother anyone get worked up over a time... it will be here very fast now.. probably in about 4 to 5 months those that get it will be flying it...

:pilotfly:

then we can wish for the F-18 or???

From page one:

Not bad observations, but 'not that far away' means different things to different people. Wags has said it'll be available this year, barring problems.

Soooo....what you mean is it'll be available sometime next year? :harhar:

Not trying to be a pessimist, I'm just saying that sometimes s**t happens.

From page one:

 

Soooo....what you mean is it'll be available sometime next year? :harhar:

 

Not trying to be a pessimist, I'm just saying that sometimes s**t happens.

So now you want ED to tell you if they think shit is going to happen or not? That's a little absurd. :D

So now you want ED to tell you if they think shit is going to happen or not? That's a little absurd. :D

Shit is bound to happen, question is how much ya will have to clean up.:D:D