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Is the A-10C textures/cockpit/raindrops update still planned?


Gliptal

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I think ED should charge for upgrades to aircraft AND to the base product. Their current model where they have to keep releasing new aircraft to keep the show on the road is, I suspect, unsustainable.

 

IMHO, the base DCSW product is not getting near enough the attention it should; I would prefer my money to go towards that, and would be happy to pay for it. Instead, all their income is coming from aircraft, many of which I simply have no interest in.

 

I think the model for Prepar3d has it about right (new version approx every two years, paid for, with many 3rd party developers charging a modest fee for upgrades as well). It's unreasonable to expect ED to keep updating everything for free for ever.


Edited by Hippo

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I think ED should charge for upgrades to aircraft AND to the base product. Their current model where they have to keep releasing new aircraft to keep the show on the road is, I suspect, unsustainable.

 

IMHO, the base DCSW product is not getting near enough the attention it should; I would prefer my money to go towards that, and would be happy to pay for it. Instead, all their income is coming from aircraft, many of which I simply have no interest in.

 

I think the model for Prepar3d has it about right (new version approx every two years, paid for, with many 3rd party developers charging a modest fee for upgrades as well). It's unreasonable to expect ED to keep updating everything for free for ever.

 

$80 is a lot to pay for one plane. It should be for a finished plane. You want us to pay for all the updates until it's finished?

Buzz

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$80 is a lot to pay for one plane. It should be for a finished plane. You want us to pay for all the updates until it's finished?

 

Considering the work and level of detail that goes into some of these aircraft (modern jets with detailed avionics and multiple weapons systems), $80 seems reasonable to me.

 

As to early access, that's another story entirely. I'm not a fan at all, but to be fair no-one is being forced to buy. I have decided that I will not buy EA ever again (well, maybe except for the F-16 ;)).

 

And, no, I was referring to updates to the completed aircraft when they need to be refreshed to bring them up to date after a few years - like they'll be doing with the Ka-50 and A-10.

 

It would be a bit cheeky (to put it mildly) for ED to charge for updates to the EA aircraft as they're brought to release, let's not go giving them ideas...


Edited by Hippo

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Quite a few companies are making a move towards subscription, to keep products up-to-date and evolving. However, in that case there's generally a whole team working on one product, which by its nature requires regular upgrading, and it's very stable all the time.

 

Another motive to have a subscription is a server maintenance and/or additional service (this addresses the iRacing comparison, for instance).

 

A very good example of subscription is development tools like Jetbrain's: languages are evolving, SDKs too, development paradigms are shifting continuously. Those are complex tools used for business, and companies can afford to pay them.

 

A bad example is MS Office: a word processor is a word processor, they can add new (unnecessary) features and fix bugs that shouldn't be there in the first place, there is no server, no real service to justify, hard to justify a subscription for that. Actually, I haven't checked whether this 365 idea was still in place or abandonned, I'm using something else now anyway.

 

In DCS there's a small team developing a lot of products, plus the base engine. In order to be eligible, a subscription service would require the products to be (a) stable and (b) updated often enough to justify this model. Or some © other form of service.

 

Neither of those apply, so it would be difficult to justify a subscription at this point. The base engine is evolving, yes, but that often breaks this or that module, and once a module is created, they don't often need upgrading. And it's for entertainment, not business, the audience is different.

 

Perhaps big upgrades of DCS world and subsequent upgrades of the modules would deserve a fee, as it sometimes happens in other sims, it's development that goes beyond what one would be expecting. But usually in that case it's not a subscription, it's a new product and people can choose not to opt in and still use the current product (see X-Plane, P3D, for example).

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Then does MS Office from 2011 have the same features as modern Office?

 

Obviously no. But today MS has moved to subscription business with office 365: with a family subscription you pay a yearly fee, smaller than an older single "home and student" or "business" license, and your office suite is always updated, you have outlook client, access and publisher, you can install on multiple devices, you have cloud, you have skype minutes to call regular numbers, and you can share your license with other 5 MS accounts, each of them having all the same features. Just for 99 /year (but in the last two years I renewed during black friday, for just 50 / year: if you divide with the other 5 people you share, it's just less than 10 / year).

 

Their current model where they have to keep releasing new aircraft to keep the show on the road is, I suspect, unsustainable.

 

This is what I fear: how would you feel if one day they will say no more updates, we can't afford, if you want to fly the old ka-50 revert from 2.7 to 2.5?

 

A bad example is MS Office: a word processor is a word processor, they can add new (unnecessary) features and fix bugs that shouldn't be there in the first place, there is no server, no real service to justify, hard to justify a subscription for that. Actually, I haven't checked whether this 365 idea was still in place or abandonned, I'm using something else now anyway.

 

As I just wrote, yes: 365 is still in place and it's the best idea ever IMHO. Few years ago I thought like you and tried libre office, a quite good suite to be open source, but way less powerful and easy to use than MS one. I quickly came back to MS and I never regret.


Edited by nessuno0505
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Obviously no. But today MS has moved to subscription business with office 365: with a family subscription you pay a yearly fee, smaller than an older single "home and student" or "business" license, and your office suite is always updated, you have outlook client, access and publisher, you can install on multiple devices, you have cloud, you have skype minutes to call regular numbers, and you can share your license with other 5 MS accounts, each of them having all the same features. Just for 99 /year (but in the last two years I renewed during black friday, for just 50 / year: if you divide with the other 5 people you share, it's just less than 10 / year).

 

 

 

This is what I fear: how would you feel if one day they will say no more updates, we can't afford, if you want to fly the old ka-50 revert from 2.7 to 2.5?

 

 

 

As I just wrote, yes: 365 is still in place and it's the best idea ever IMHO. Few years ago I thought like you and tried libre office, a quite good suite to be open source, but way less powerful and easy to use than MS one. I quickly came back to MS and I never regret.

 

 

Yeah, I wouldn't mind the the SaaS model, honestly. I don't mind paying for good software. Hell, I just changed by lifelong perpetual license for Ultraedit to SaaS model.

 

ED could have tiers. Cheaper ones where you can fly one plane at a time (some minimum per checkout) or a higher cost if you want to fly any and all aircraft.

 

They can do something like "if you want to stay perpetual, you'll get X more major releases and that's that"

 

I mean the A10 shader/cockpit upgrade is an upgrade right? Why should people expect it as a freebie just because *newer* planes like FA18 ships with it. After all, the tech wasn't available when A10C shipped. There was never a promise that planes will be updated in perpetuity.

 

I'd rather pay to have ED stay around than not.


Edited by hansangb

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Subscription isn't a bad idea. But your logic doesn't make any sense to me. If you buy a 10 year old car, do you expect it to have the same features as a 2019 model car?

 

And if your answer is "it's software so it's different" Then does MS Office from 2011 have the same features as modern Office?

 

And if your answer is "but they are adding new feature" We're right back to paying for the textures. Someone above said "no way, it's should be free" But I can just as easily argue that adding new shaders *is* a new feature.

 

But I do like yearly all you can eat SaaS license model. You could have different tier pricing. Interesting idea.

 

I think its a great idea. The world is moving to a subscription economy and while its tough to swallow it is a good way to ensure companies follow your individual interests; “put your money where mouth is”.

 

Automobile analogy is voided because if I purchase a 2002 Honda civic, I don’t need to download an update to get to worm (play online), and worse if I do, my civic doesn’t suddenly invert it switches, reverse its headlights or crash into the nearest telephone pole.

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As I said, a part of the world is moving to subscription, but when it applies to the business model. DCS would have to offer something entirely different for that.

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Yeah, I wouldn't mind the the SaaS model, honestly. I don't mind paying for good software. Hell, I just changed by lifelong perpetual license for Ultraedit to SaaS model.

 

Tell you what, I'll extend an olive branch.

 

The moment DCS becomes good software, I will be 100% a-ok with a SaaS model. Until that time, they should not make people pay twice for the same product, like they did with BS2. It was the exact same thing as BS. Maybe you weren't around then to fully experience the fury from the community then. It was deplorable and utterly anti consumer move for them when they made people pay twice for the Ka-50, with no added value. It was a paid upgrade so you can play in multiplayer in 1.2

 

ED have stated several times, that the modeling rework on modules will be at no additional charge, and rightfully so. The problem several of you have, is you think if you tell ED you will pay for it, they will do it quicker. That's not how this works. It will not speed up the process.

 

If they want to charge for an update on the A-10C, it better mean we get an A-10C, with it's engines fixed, FM fixed, updated avionics version and HMD. That is worth a paid upgrade.

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Until that time, they should not make people pay twice for the same product, like they did with BS2. It was the exact same thing as BS.

 

At the risk of sounding like a ED fanboy (I'm really not), I own:

 

a Russian version of BS1 (I unfortunately don't speak Russian, I remember buying it was a fun experience at the time)

an English version of BS1

the BS1 -> BS2 upgrade

full BS2 version (cos it was all too much hassle)

 

I don't begrudge them a penny, as I have had more (and endless hours of ) enjoyment from BS than any other module. It's not fair to say BS was the exact same thing, at worst it could be described as a cosmetic update.

 

The problem several of you have, is you think if you tell ED you will pay for it, they will do it quicker.

 

I do not think that. I just think that if developers carry out work, then ED have to find the money for them to be paid.

 

If they want to charge for an update on the A-10C, it better mean we get an A-10C, with it's engines fixed, FM fixed, updated avionics version and HMD. That is worth a paid upgrade.

 

Whoa there, easy tiger. Remind me not to spill your pint. ;)

 

Surely it depends on what they provide. If it is an update so that the graphics work with the new engine, then I wouldn't object to paying a small upgrade fee. If it's a full rework of the aircraft and systems, then a higher price would be justified.

 

All, of course, imho.


Edited by Hippo

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It's not fair to say BS was the exact same thing, at worst it could be described as a cosmetic update.

 

BS2 was the exact same thing, as BS. Not a single drop of additional content. Nothing. It was inexcusable.

 

Surely it depends on what they provide. If it is an update so that the graphics work with the new engine, then I wouldn't object to paying a small upgrade fee. If it's a full rework of the aircraft and systems, then a higher price would be justified.

 

I would object. Vehemently so. The developers are being paid for every drop of work they do. Why do folks think people aren't being paid?

 

As I stated in an earlier post the vast majority of capex on a module is in the actual development of the module. Once the development is done, you have limitless inventory of said product, that you could conceivable sell until the heat death of the universe. They don't have to spend another sent acquiring units for manufacture of the product to sell, only on "warehousing." After that, especially in the case of something that has been for sale as long as the A-10C, it's nothing, but nett. No additional capex is required to supply the module. People still buy it in droves, to this day, and will continue buying it.

 

An update to the bring the module up to date with the current engine, does not justify it being a paid update, and ED knows this, which is why they aren't charging for it, as they haven't charged for the updates to the WW2 planes' updates either. Costs are recouped from every module sale. Old and new.

 

Every now and then one of these threads will popup in these forums, where there a couple people that seem to think ED is in financial trouble and their business model isn't sustainable. If that were the case, wouldn't they have adapted their business model by now? If it isn't sustainable, it probably would have shown in past 20 years.

 

If they provide sufficient value, people will pay. They don't have to twist our arms, nor do they need to be anti consumer. I have bought several modules for myself and even gifted some. Anybody that's a fan of flight simming in general, doesn't have a problem with paying, and nobody just wants stuff for free. However, what everybody wants, is value for what they pay for.

 

Charging to have their stuff fixed, is where I draw the line. If you truly feel ED needs more sales, then buy more modules. If you have all of them, start gifting people modules.

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You can keep on saying BS2 was the exact same thing if you like, but it just ain't so:

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air14/air_504a.html

 

The rest of your post is unsubstantiated assertions, contradictions, inventions and a soupcon of circular reasoning. I wish you all the best and hope you continue to get everything you want from DCS, but will just agree to disagree at this point.


Edited by Hippo

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I would gladly pay for an upgrade for the glorious A-10!

It's been a great ride, but it begins to feel the years...

The droplets don't work, but more importantly, the lightning

is messed up, formation lights / nose illumination are not seen from the outside,

but they light up the cockpit like Christmas, landing lights far too weak.....

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I think this is all good healthy discussion. Its fair to be on either side of this divide. I hipe that the fact the discussion is happening will help educate EDs future decisions about how to best serve their market and in turn be profitable. If the right decisions are made, we ALL win

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I do not know if ED current business Is reliable or not.

I know I don't like some aspects of It as a customer.

A happy customer of a wonderful product, Just to be clear.

Some Say a subscription type business won't Speed up updates.

But if you have a constant flow of money, let's Say, a-10c dedicated, you can pay developers to work on a-10c.

If you have a small yearly fee for each plane, you can even choose every year which to buy, and change when you want, or have all the modules at a time. It's up to you and you can always change.

You buy a 3rd party module and then you realize you don't like? You do not renew subscription! Only really good, appreciated and High quality module would survive, and this would constantly improve dcs.

I do not even know if this type of business Is reliable or not, maybe it's Just a dream and can't work. I'm not a businessman, ED people are.

But if this would be possibile, I'd be very Happy.


Edited by nessuno0505
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ED makes it's money. They aren't selling to just us. I'm sure they have plenty of military contracts. We're just icing.

 

 

They need to repair what they have broken. On BS and A-10. Are we supposed to pay every time THEY break something?

 

 

It's already an expensive sim, and the VAST majority of us are not rich. I barely make above the US minimum wage, and I have college degrees.


Edited by 3WA
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ED makes it's money. They aren't selling to just us. I'm sure they have plenty of military contracts. We're just icing.

 

Fact or speculation? You appear to state it with absolute certainty. Are you really, really sure? How do you know?

 

They need to repair what they have broken. On BS and A-10. Are we supposed to pay every time THEY break something?

 

The number of aircraft keeps growing. Every time a major upgrade to the engine takes place, all the aircraft "break" and need to be "fixed" for free. The DCS World base product is sold at $0. Surely I can't be the only one to see a problem with this?

 

I'm not sure a full-on subscription model would be entirely appropriate for DCS (options are always good to have though), my own preference would be what LM do with P3D.

 

It's already an expensive sim, and the VAST majority of us are not rich. I barely make above the US minimum wage, and I have college degrees.

 

The sim itself is free. Objectively, the more complex modern aircraft are less expensive or ballpark in comparison to top-level P3D products. I don't think $80 - $100 for, say the F16 or F18 is unreasonable. Of course, all these things are relative, for some it's a small fortune, for others it's peanuts.

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I feel quite strongly about SaaS, simply because it only takes one who can count to make it obvious. And people are falling for it all over.

 

I truly hope ED will never take that path.

--

On the topic at hand, I'll be a happy camper when the promised update lands :pilotfly:

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as stated before, if ED is in such financial trouble, they would have perished long ago. I'm sure they know how to run their business. I'll let them take care of that while I fly the awesome planes! Also, I'm pretty sure ED have stated themselves they have contracts with other sources then us (example: YAK-52), and i'm sure they have more they can't talk about, so they are getting more money then just from us.


Edited by joshloar10
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Has anybody made an updated cockpit for the Hog? I'd look in user files but it's over 7000 pages.

 

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/fr/files/1562558/

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Tell you what, I'll extend an olive branch.

 

The moment DCS becomes good software, I will be 100% a-ok with a SaaS model. Until that time, they should not make people pay twice for the same product, like they did with BS2. It was the exact same thing as BS. Maybe you weren't around then to fully experience the fury from the community then. It was deplorable and utterly anti consumer move for them when they made people pay twice for the Ka-50, with no added value. It was a paid upgrade so you can play in multiplayer in 1.2

 

ED have stated several times, that the modeling rework on modules will be at no additional charge, and rightfully so. The problem several of you have, is you think if you tell ED you will pay for it, they will do it quicker. That's not how this works. It will not speed up the process.

 

If they want to charge for an update on the A-10C, it better mean we get an A-10C, with it's engines fixed, FM fixed, updated avionics version and HMD. That is worth a paid upgrade.

 

 

If you are not getting any value out of it, you shouldn't be forced to pay. If DCS' quality suffers that much, people will move on. It happens all the time. In the US, ESPN, an all sports network, waded into politics and alienated 50% of the country. So naturally, they lost customers in droves. They decided to stop with the political commentary and decided to focus on what they do best, sports.

 

That's the market economy. NO ONE is forced to pay for sub par program, and subpar is defined by one's own experience.

 

I purchased the BS when it came in DVD (CD?) format. I bought the BS2 upgrade, and the next few times I upgraded, I couldn't be bothered with installing from the CD/DVD to use the BS upgrade. But after a while, ED decided to give us a BS2 license that didn't require the CD.

 

The point I'm making is that I *didn't* think digging for the BS1 media was worth the effort. And I didn't feel like buying a new license and I didn't.

 

But for FA18, F14, Huey, etc, I'll gladly pay. It ain't perfect. I want the JHMCS, I want the new shaders, I want the VR fix, and I'm willing to pay for it because *I* think it's worth it. So much so that I own ever DLC and module except the MiGs. I don't even fly most of it, but I wanted to support the 3rd party and ED. So I voted with my wallet.

 

We're not different at all. You don't see value where I see value. It's as simple as that. Neither of us are wrong. The market will decide. It always does.

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