Will there ever be a SA342sim? - Page 3 - ED Forums
 


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Old 05-25-2019, 04:31 PM   #21
Alec Delorean
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@Damcopter


I already found your comments and i feel with you. Polychop did a pretty bad job here. I'm also angry, because the module is more of a fake and mostly useless for me. I wonder what DCS devs are thinking about it, it definitely lacks their quality standard.
Another point is, it's pretty hard to explain to others with less experience or even harder if the gazelle is their only helicopter module/reference. Additionally, without FFB HOTAS most people will never understand what's one of the best features ever that DCS brought into the world of heli sims. Polychop completely cut this off, maybe they thought they can get away with it, because they thought only a few people have this kind of hardware.

However, we have to look forward and hope for the best.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:09 PM   #22
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Just try to move the collective (HOTAS throttle) very fast in KA-50 and see how it reacts in the cockpit. It can only be as fast as the KA-50's real collective. In the Gazelle i can move it fast as hell, as there seems to be no mechanical/physical resistance. Same for cyclic controls...
That is something I consider as bad in any module, if there is a virtual dampening. If I move quickly the control input from one end to another, I expect to see same in the cockpit.

But what I expect as well to see, is a realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc.

So that is part that should be simulated, not the dampening for my inputs otherwise.

This is a problem in many modules, like example MiG-29/Su-27S there is no simulation of the inertia or the air in your aircraft but the aircraft flies directly as your inputs are. This is something you can see by comparing a real cockpit video to DCS one, where you can see that in reality pilot is throwing stick around a lot and quickly just to keep aircraft steady and stable, receiving a very small and nice control of the aircraft.
If you try to do same thing in DCS, the aircrafts reacts violently with huge effects. That is because the actual air resistance is not simulated.

And that similar thing is feeling in the Gazelle. You give a input and helicopter reacts to it without any hesitation. The KA-50 (that has as well SAS, gazelle is not the only one https://helicoptermaintenancemagazin...E2%80%99s-name) at least has this feeling that you have a mass, inertia and airflow. Gazelle still feels like a paper plane in a full controlled environment, and nothing like you can see in the real Gazelle pilots cockpit videos where they are extremely careful in all inputs and they can even do larger inputs without helicopter reacting them as crazy horse.

The Gazelle has no difficulties for anyone to fly. It doesn't have any mistakes to allow you to do. It is literally like flying an aircraft all the time but still performing all the hovering and transition flights effortless.

I have flight in much lighter helicopter than Gazelle, and there is nothing like Gazelle has now. Those things really want to kill you, SAS or no SAS.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Alec Delorean View Post
Oh man, really? So in fact you don't have any clue about what DCS is capable to do with helicopter controls. And it is doing it perfectly fine for over 10 years now, since Blackshark 1.0 and in any other helicopter module...


I'm giving up for now, maybe the announced big update will bring what it takes to make this a better simulation of the SA342.
Are you a real experienced heli-pilot ? Or is your wisdom and knowledge falling out of your A.......hole?
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:03 PM   #24
Alec Delorean
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Actually, i'm an astronaut. Sometimes things fall out my astronaut's hole, yes...
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
That is something I consider as bad in any module, if there is a virtual dampening. If I move quickly the control input from one end to another, I expect to see same in the cockpit.

But what I expect as well to see, is a realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc.

So that is part that should be simulated, not the dampening for my inputs otherwise.

This is a problem in many modules, like example MiG-29/Su-27S there is no simulation of the inertia or the air in your aircraft but the aircraft flies directly as your inputs are.

Virtual dampening is a must for simulation. The collective of the KA-50 is a good example. If you could move it as fast as you like you would break simulation parameters (and by the way damage gears, engine etc.). Stuff like this needs to be mildly disconnected from user input in a way that you can adapt to it when you learn to fly the aircraft. Some Throttle devices have customizable mechanical dampening, this helps a little with haptics, but the simulation has to be nearly 1:1 within it's real life flight model or atleast as good as possible.
MiG-29/Su-27S are from the FC3 package, don't expect them to be on par with standalone modules on the grade of simulation.
And, because i'm a lucky owner of a FFB joystick, DCS replicates realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc. (in nearly all standalone modules, but not the gazelle).
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:12 AM   #26
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i'm real helicopter pilot, i have a lots of flight hours (3000+) over a different type of helicopter with SAS and ATT stabilization computer, and i'm sorry, but the DCS Gazalle fly like a RC helicopter. The DCS KA50 (SAS too) fly very well like a real helo and also the Mi8.

Plese Tune the flight model, it's very bad, and i'm very sad, because i love the small attack helos.

THX
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Alec Delorean View Post
Virtual dampening is a must for simulation. The collective of the KA-50 is a good example. If you could move it as fast as you like you would break simulation parameters (and by the way damage gears, engine etc.). Stuff like this needs to be mildly disconnected from user input in a way that you can adapt to it when you learn to fly the aircraft. Some Throttle devices have customizable mechanical dampening, this helps a little with haptics, but the simulation has to be nearly 1:1 within it's real life flight model or atleast as good as possible.
There are some things that can be dampened, but in reality you can do very hard adjustments as there is nothing limiting you in many controls. Sure there are things like Mig-29 has the strength requirement for moving stick, or some helicopter collectives has dampening crease in them, but it should be by each aircraft itself how it is done.

Yet the controls should be as much as possible 1:1 to the real thing if there is no real dampening. Force shouldn't affect it, just that if there is a such dampening that you can't move a real control faster than lets say 14 degree a second no matter is the control force 2kg or is it 25kg, but that is up to the actual mechanic.

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MiG-29/Su-27S are from the FC3 package, don't expect them to be on par with standalone modules on the grade of simulation.
They have just got PFM modeling. That is what one would expect from the module flight modeling that you will have all the small effects of the air for the flying. That has nothing to do with the cockpit instrument modeling but just all about the flight modeling.

That is about the details and level of the flight modeling, like Heatblur modules (Viggen and TomCat) you actually get the immersion of flying as the aircraft has all the small flight modeling behaviors, something that many other doesn't have. And Heatblur even has imroved that immersion by sound, so you hear the bolts, cables, levelers etc sounds that informs you audible that what is happening.

Quote:
And, because i'm a lucky owner of a FFB joystick, DCS replicates realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc. (in nearly all standalone modules, but not the gazelle).
Yes, I own as well Force Feedback joystick but don't use it anymore. I did fly Gazelle when it came out with about 35 cm (IIRC) extension on G940 and that was the time when Gazelle was confirmed to have realistic flight modeling, and that helicopter flipped around just by 2 cm movements of the cyclic. Couldn't even consider what it was without extension! But since then it has gone even more to "RC" kind flight modeling where it just flies unrealistic manner, like a giant would be hanging you from a string and play with the helicopter you believe you are flying.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Delorean View Post
Will it ever leave it's alpha/early access state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat01 View Post
**********
24/04/2018
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<snip>
- The Gazelle module goes out of beta state, potential still existing issues will be corrected in time.
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:17 PM   #29
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And there it goes, again a thread complaining about fms...
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Old 05-28-2019, 03:24 PM   #30
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I'm a real helicopter pilot too and I'm happy with the Gazelle. The two points I'd like to see improved are multicrew and that control damping. In a real helicopter I can move the controls full deflection as fast as I want unless the hydraulics fail. It might break the helicopter doing that but thats why you don't. As the damping stands now I make an input and don't get the desired response when I expect to causing me to over correct. The flight model as a whole feels pretty good as is reminiscent of flying an MD-500 to me. This is an argument we've had over and over though. Yea it's a sim but it's also a game, not a flight training device. Flying helicopters is hard. On average it takes people 10 hours of practice just to learn to hover. Do you really want to spend 10 FREAKING hours just practicing hovering before you can use a helicopter module you bought? If you want to learn how to fly a real helicopter turn off DCS find a flight school and go take an intro flight.

I fly helicopters for a living. I enjoy the Gazelle. I hope Polychop can fix multicrew but I'm going to continue to support their future releases.
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