F-14 Handling in Knife Fight - ED Forums
 


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Old 04-26-2019, 03:09 PM   #1
bonesvf103
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Default F-14 Handling in Knife Fight

OK, so I've read the discourse from Victory, watched many videos on YouTube, even went as far as to buy rudder pedals JUST for the DCS F-14...


...and yet I still cannot consistently dogfight in this wonderful aircraft. It seems that at high AOA, when I use the rudders to turn the aircraft, I either end up over-rolling and end up nose down, or her airspeed plummets near-instantaneously to stall speed. Even when I center the stick, or unload, she doesn't seem to recover with any useful energy. There are times when I'm pointed completely nose down and I'm still at stall speed despite being at Zone V and vertically down.


Then there are times when I have energy and when I go to a zoom climb, the buffeting starts and again airspeed drops like a rock. I don't feel like I even see or feel this great climbing advantage that the Tomcat is supposed to have over other aircraft.



It feels like I'm babying her all the time. There are times when I can get in the perfect position behind an F-16 and can get a guns kill, but lo and behold, I can't even raise my nose to get the pipper on him and because the energy is just not there.


So what is the issue? When you roll with the rudder, are you still seeing buffet and wing rock? Do you just hold the pull on the stick (don't pull any further) and just lumber through the turn with the rudder no matter how much buffeting you get?


Maybe I'm flying too much against tight turning aircraft like the F-16---I don't seem to have a problem against an Su-27--but that's why I said I can't seem to knife fight CONSISTENTLY.


Any ideas?


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Old 04-26-2019, 03:17 PM   #2
Vertigo72
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This is a good video on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5opjCygZug

And no it wont solve all your issues (nor mine) but it does a good job describing them
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Old 04-26-2019, 03:38 PM   #3
jross194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonesvf103 View Post
1) ...end up nose down

2) ...when I center the stick, or unload, she doesn't seem to recover with any useful energy

3) ...It feels like I'm babying her all the time.

4)...I can't even raise my nose to get the pipper on him and because the energy is just not there.

boNes
I'm with ya. Hardest I've ever had to work at it. And I'm _barely_ there against expert AI. About 3 outta 4 lately.

1) I've come to the conclusion that: that's how it is. Meaning it sorta makes sense. I didn't start to gain any success til I realized that it's gong to be a spiral dance, and I can out roll him, keeping my lift vector where I want it. But it's going to be downhill, and steep.

Seems the AI, on expert at least, always use the vertical, and if I'm not really ginger with the pole I'm struggling.

2) I've been comparing this to the Hornet and to me it actually does accelerate briskly when I unload, or at least it's more noticeable.

3) Same and I just think that's the nature of this beast. Haven't read it in a while but Victory205 may have inferred this with his "...tap dance on the pedals, don't pound on them..", or some-such thing.

4) Got that T-shirt too. Seems like I really (really) have to manage the energy; if I let it slip even a tad low and 'tug' a tiny bit too hard, the target flies away and I've got to unload and re-group. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I've taken to controlling the stick from the base; sorta like I did when I first started doing AR in the Tomcat (before I discovered Bomb Mode). My stick is very sensitive and has no feedback. Is even harder for me in VR when contorted in my chair and looking back over my shoulder.

For me, for example: I just went against the MIG-21, expert AI, in the Hornet. Once I latched on, for fun, I just kept on his Six til he ran outta gas. In the Tomcat it takes 3X the work to do this. And I'm not that successful yet.

On the rudder & buffet: heard it somewhere (here?) that your cue is a _little_ buffet; almost like, to me, when I start to notice it I'm probably starting to go over the edge, or really close. Assuming you're near the 'correct' IAS.

Last edited by jross194; 04-26-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 04:13 PM   #4
bonesvf103
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Quote:
This is a good video on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5opjCygZug

And no it wont solve all your issues (nor mine) but it does a good job describing them

Thanks, this is one of the ones I've watched several times. I've noticed that in his breaks, he is usually around 400 or 500 knots. When flying against say an F-16 I typically see about 300 knots at the most. Which means losing energy pretty quickly. So I don't know if his video can apply as much unless I somehow keep my energy state at 400+ knots against the Falcon.


Thanks for trying to help though!



v6,
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Old 04-26-2019, 04:23 PM   #5
bonesvf103
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Originally Posted by jross194 View Post

I've taken to controlling the stick from the base; sorta like I did when I first started doing AR in the Tomcat (before I discovered Bomb Mode). My stick is very sensitive and has no feedback. Is even harder for me in VR when contorted in my chair and looking back over my shoulder.

For me, for example: I just went against the MIG-21, expert AI, in the Hornet. Once I latched on, for fun, I just kept on his Six til he ran outta gas. In the Tomcat it takes 3X the work to do this. And I'm not that successful yet.

On the rudder & buffet: heard it somewhere (here?) that your cue is a _little_ buffet; almost like, to me, when I start to notice it I'm probably starting to go over the edge, or really close. Assuming you're near the 'correct' IAS.



OK, I'm glad I'm not the only one that KNOWS how to fly ACM/BFM but still struggles with the Tom...not to mention I love the Tom so it makes it really hard for me to accept it having to be babied so much.


ANYWAY, yes I am like you, when I fly against an Aggressor F-16 (the stock mission that comes with the NNTS for DACT guns only), I can 95% of the time stay on his six and keep off of his, but I can't seem to get good solid shots. The only times I've been able to shoot him down is if I got a slashing snapshot or was lucky to gun him on the nose in the initial merge. Otherwise, I, like you, can only win when he runs out of gas and/or hits the ground. I've gone vertical with him before to "reset the engagement" with my "superior" thrust, but it seems like he climbs better than me or I can't climb at more than 40 deg nose up before buffeting starts or energy runs out. If I get to full vertical, I'm ready to stall out and no rudder or stick will control me enough to turn back into the flight.


In terms of rudder, I believe Victory's words are that you don't need a dramatic amount of rudder...but I wonder if maybe I need to change my rudder settings because it seems to roll me over pretty harsh. TBH, I am using the same rudder settings as recommended in Chuck's F/A-18 guide--maybe that's not correct.


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Old 04-26-2019, 04:28 PM   #6
Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson
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Really hard for me as well. No problem against Flankers, but -29 are another story. In the previous patch (not the latest, but the one before) I found difficulty to fight F-5E3 on the vertical. I was a little bit choked since it's really what ''Top Gun'' instructors told to their studdent against T-38 (which I assume are pretty close to f-5) : go vertical, it is not possible for him to follow you.



Here's the video I'm reffering to (listen at 5.45) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RaMp2r7eWI


Didn't tried again in the latest OB though.
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Old 04-26-2019, 04:59 PM   #7
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Are you disabling roll SAS for dogfighting?

When on, it greatly increases instability at high AOA. Turn if off for dogfights.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:36 PM   #8
Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson
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Sandman1330 yes, it's part of my ''fence in checklist'' ! But honestly the most probable reason is that I just suck
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:03 PM   #9
bonesvf103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman1330 View Post
Are you disabling roll SAS for dogfighting?

When on, it greatly increases instability at high AOA. Turn if off for dogfights.



Yes, I do as well.


v6,
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:55 PM   #10
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I’ve found I don’t even need to reference speed, after some practice I just watch the AoA and feel for how much stick I’m giving her, that and the buffet que, I can manage my energy just fine.
If I pull more than 15 units of AoA she bleeds speed.
When in bomb mode the AoA comes on faster but seems to be more forgiving and conserves energy better if I go over 15 units for a few seconds.

The magic number seems to be 15 units of AoA for sustained turns.
Anything more and she drops like a rock, you can guess speed just by how much stick you pull and how much AoA is on the bird, but like I said AoA comes on with less stick the more sweep you have.

Last edited by Longiron; 04-27-2019 at 12:44 AM. Reason: Fat fingers
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