F16 force sensing stick

How's the weight of the stick compare to the TM Warthog?

How's the weight of the stick compare to the TM Warthog?

It is lighter for sure but not that light--I haven't really done the exact measurement. Resin vs Metal, you get the idea. I'm still attached to the cold metal feel of the Warthog, but I think it is because I'm so used to that grip. The dimensions and form factor is pretty much exact same.

The bluetooth stick once paired properly is registered as 2 separate devices in Windows due to the large amount of DX inputs. So in DCS settings I'm seeing FSSB which is used as axis inputs, and 2 Bluetooth F16 devices for button inputs. The depress switches on DMS and TMS, for example, is DX 61 and 62 on the app. If you bind this directly via DCS, you have to select device 2 and they become DX 30 and 31 on device 2. The 5-way buttons are surprisingly easy to operate and accurate, as there is a faint click which gives you both tactile and audio feedback during operation.

I find the dial at the bottom of the hat switch to be incredibly useful and very easy to operate. I have been using layer 2 for COMM (Realsim calls it memory slots, same diff). Rotate the dial one stop clockwise and there is audio cue from FSSB and the visual cue on the stick's LED that there's a mode switch. Since the weapon release switch is 5-way, I bind F1-F5 there. The 5-way TMS switch is also very easy to reach via thumb, and this receives F5-F10 binding--so that's already 10 switches on just 2 buttons. F11-12 is bound to pinky left and right (NWS/Undesignated button). When I'm done with COMM it's a matter of rotate the dial back to layer 1, and boom, all set. This can be accomplished very quickly.

So far the grip itself is awesome, but I'm not really sure if bluetooth is really needed for most people. Bluetooth connection and set up can be quite finicky and depending on people's comfort zone, I can see a lot of less-savvy or non-patient type getting frustrated getting this stick to work with their setups. I have no problem pairing it with 3 of my PCs, but there are reports in Realsim's forum about various connection issues requiring specific type of BT dongle in order for it to work.

What would be even better is for Realsim to release a LITE version of this without bluetooth that is more affordable to the general public. I think this is going to become my favorite stick from now on (of course I still need a replacement since my current one has broken paddle switch). It's hi-tech and very versatile, and although I'm probably not going to utilize most of its capability for home use, but that's quite ok.

F16 force sensing stick

Got a chance to try the stick with Virpil WarBRD and TMW bases. Everything appears to work as intended

The stick basically needs to draw power from either TM PS2 type socket or USB port such as battery power pack or PC (if you plug in the USB cord then you can’t plug it into the base). Since it is bluetooth 4.0 it draws little power. It doesn’t care which type of bases it is attached to as long as it is powered and paired the buttons will work. You would still utilize axis inputs from your base in the game (unless you want to use the built in sensor). VKB base obviously won’t work since it uses a different type of connection so there is no way to power the stick.

I ran into Bluetooth disconnection a few times and had to turn it off and then on again for it to work. I suspect signal interference for other electronic devices and moved WiFi extender and Nintendo Switch away from that PC and there seemed to be no further issue. USB 3 socket is a no no for this device as it takes forever for the signal to be detected and it would pair 50% of the time. USB 2 on the other hand is fully compatible.

When I shutdown and reboot the PC the joystick’s bluetooth came on so fast and would look for pairing right away and by the time Windows is loaded and ready the connection has already timed out. What to do in this case is to force the stick to look for pairing again (press both TMS center and DMS center), or don’t plug in the device until Windows is loaded.

So obviously there is still work to do on the software side. They’ll have to do something about delaying the pairing whenever you reboot and also somehow improve on the stability of connection.

I still have to test the built in axis sensor inputs (x, y and z).

Maybe this is a good solution for those of you on a budget:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=245968

F16 force sensing stick

Got a chance to try the built in axis sensors and it’s pretty good. The Realsim’s video can be a bit misleading because the stick was attached to a free rod which wasn’t fixed in place, so it is only as smooth as the handler.

I attached the stick to Virpil’s WarBRD base but only utilized its base to fix my stick in place (return to center, etc). After calibration via RS app the operation was quite smooth. There is minimal input lag (milliseconds) due to wireless but most people probably won’t notice it. It’s the kind of lag that is similar to PlayStation or Xbox controllers, which is minimal. No stuttering or juddering was seen. I switched between Virpil’s gimbal input vs Bluetooth input back and forth in real time during test flight with F/A-18C and could barely tell the differences (Virpil’s input is slightly superior in terms of responsiveness since it is wired, but the Bluetooth input is quite good and also has an extra Z axis (Yaw) that can be used). Z axis can be used by loosen the screw between the stick and the base a bit (Virpil WarBRD in this case), this allows me to twist the stick side to side for Yaw input.

It turns out you can also operate the stick without bluetooth, but currently it only works with Warthog base and would only utilize the standard 19 DX inputs plus 8-way FOV. When attached to the Virpil base the buttons get all messed up. For example pressing a trigger would activate 2 switches at the same time and same goes for TMS buttons. This can probably be fixed via software, but I do not think it is going to be their priorities.

Supmua is the only grip option they offer the Bluetooth or is there something for the FS base? I intend to pick one up for right side mounting when the f16 drops, probably use my WH grip, but the 5-ways and higher quality buttons sound great. Im not sure I understand the relationship between BT and button functionality. If you had it on a fssb would it still require BT?

Also, your comment about the other axises and throttle? I realize this isn’t what they’re for but the thought of a throttle at this quality/price level is the holy grail...

It is not too bad if you are the gentle type with typical joystick base since only small amount input force is needed. But if you are the type that slams your stick around when you fly, and use heavy curve setting etc, then it is going to take some time to get used to it.

Not picking on ya but fyi there’s no way they accidentally snap roll’d, aileron roll maybe but snaps are different. Snap rolls aren’t really a roll, it’s a stall that requires coordinated and timed inputs that wouldn’t happen accidentally. Where a really sensitive y axis might cause you to roll faster/further than intended, snap rolls don’t use aileron (much). The easiest type requires you to asymmetrically stall at high AOA, which (from level flight) means full elevator followed by full rudder, stalling the wing on that side, and as the other comes around full opposite rudder and hard push to arrest the spin. I’ve never seen a fighter jet do one, not sure it’s even possible (they don’t like asymmetric lift conditions, create adverse yaw, etc). They aren’t particularly difficult (basic ones at least, negative G entry, vertical, or compound maneuvers like avalanche k-values increase significantly), but the entry condition and control inputs aren’t likely to occur without intent.

Despite being able to do one with my eyes closed I have a difficult time in sims, I think it’s partially the sticks we have (control forces always the same regardless of deflection/speed), and absence of seat of pants reference and the SA you have in RL... don’t know. Ordinarily I’d say “slamming your stick around” doesn’t equate to lack of precision, if your in a fight I don’t know why you’d roll at less than full aileron, but personally hard to be that precise in a sim (for me at least)

Skootch, you can use the grip on the R3 force sensing base or freestyle, just mounted on a rod or even held in your hand....it's difficult to describe, and I have only just got mine set up, so much to learn about how to use it and what it can do, but have to say, its simply amazing.

In fact I am amazed with so many serious simmers here that the realsimulator stuff is not more commonly used. It really is a completely higher level of feel and control and top quality kit.

F16 force sensing stick

As far as I know, If you want to take advantage of all the buttons Bluetooth is needed. When I used it without Bluetooth pairing on the Warthog base, only 19 DX buttons plus POV hat are registered.

I actually haven’t tried it on the FSSB with Bluetooth off since I have too many setups and too little time to switch around all the different setup combos, and now have to pack it up (returning it due to damage during shipment). Maybe someone else can chime in.

My motherboard’s Bluetooth 5 doesn’t work well with the stick even though it is backward compatible, I have had sporadic disconnection issues with it (ASUS ROG Strix 390-E motherboard). When I added a Bluetooth 4.0 dongle it paired much faster and maintained better connectivity. PCs with built-in bluetooth 4 on mobo seem to work better. I also added a 10-pin USB 2.0 cable to my ROG STRIX 390 E motherboard but found that it isn’t really needed as its USB 3.0 ports seem to work ok for Bluetooth pairing.

I really like the stick and hope to have it back soon (the serial number is actually part of my name, lol how cool is that). For me it is worth the money, even though I’m probably not going to use all of its features. I definitely plan to utilize at least the built in Yaw sensor for spacesims and Mechwarrior, quite doable when plugged into my Virpil WarBRD base (I took out the two fixing screws on the top plate to allow the connection to rotate around.

On a side note, TM F-18 grip is coming soon (some Euro customers have already received theirs). That one is something to look forward to also, although I don’t think there is anything out there that can top Realsim’s stick right now.

In fact I am amazed with so many serious simmers here that the realsimulator stuff is not more commonly used.

It's the price. People are losing their minds over the $230 TM F/A-18 stick, a $500 stick is not even within their realm of comprehension, no matter what kind of features it has.

When I used it without Bluetooth pairing on the Warthog base, only 19 DX buttons plus POV hat are registered.

Are you sure that it worked that way? I received mine, and I couldn't get any buttons to register, unless it was connected via Bluetooth.

I have it plugged into an R3 base, and the buttons do not register at all on the R3 base, even before Bluetooth pairing.

I tried attaching it to my Brunner CLS-E, and it didn't register any buttons there either.

I haven't tried it on a Warthog base, though.

On a side note, TM F-18 grip is coming soon (some Euro customers have already received theirs). That one is something to look forward to also, although I don’t think there is anything out there that can top Realsim’s stick right now.

Thanks for info. And ya, I know about the TM grip. I won't vent here but i have issues with TM. They got me so pissed I almost named Claude, Michel, Yves, Gerard and the whole family in a consumer protection suit. In the end I decided not to waste my time but I'm not interested in further business.

Besides, I have a WH grip, don't really see the point of the F18 other than no depressible SS. An upgraded quality A-10/f-16 layout though... that's interesting. But that's $900 + shipping in joystick w/ FSSB.

Oh, and Randma - its not the price. Plenty of people on here with $500 sticks. VKB's come out at $500, and I think Virpil's is about the same. And neither is exactly easy to get. For some reason realsim just isn't well known.

If we could just get them to make a proper throttle with a force sensing slew and long realistic travel.

Are you sure that it worked that way? I received mine, and I couldn't get any buttons to register, unless it was connected via Bluetooth.

 

 

 

I have it plugged into an R3 base, and the buttons do not register at all on the R3 base, even before Bluetooth pairing.

 

 

 

I tried attaching it to my Brunner CLS-E, and it didn't register any buttons there either.

 

 

 

I haven't tried it on a Warthog base, though.

I tried without Bluetooth pairing on both Warthog and WarBRD bases. I could get buttons to work correctly with the Warthog, but with WarBRD it was messed up—some button press would activate 2 switches. Pretty easy to check since when you run joy.cpl you would only see the bases. I only tested my FSSB R3L with Bluetooth on so no idea if it works that way with it. Can’t test it further now since It is going back for repair.

F16 force sensing stick

Thanks for info. And ya, I know about the TM grip. I won't vent here but i have issues with TM. They got me so pissed I almost named Claude, Michel, Yves, Gerard and the whole family in a consumer protection suit. In the end I decided not to waste my time but I'm not interested in further business.

 

 

 

Besides, I have a WH grip, don't really see the point of the F18 other than no depressible SS. An upgraded quality A-10/f-16 layout though... that's interesting. But that's $900 + shipping in joystick w/ FSSB.

 

 

 

Oh, and Randma - its not the price. Plenty of people on here with $500 sticks. VKB's come out at $500, and I think Virpil's is about the same. And neither is exactly easy to get. For some reason realsim just isn't well known.

 

 

 

If we could just get them to make a proper throttle with a force sensing slew and long realistic travel.

Lawsuit huh. I almost had to go to court once and it would’ve costed $60k per day. Let’s just say that I would avoid something like that like plaque no matter how pissed I am.

Lawsuit huh. I almost had to go to court once and it would’ve costed $60k per day. Let’s just say that I would avoid something like that like plaque no matter how pissed I am.

60k/day is an awful lot, like Skadden Arps high stakes patent trial per day fees high.

I'm a lawyer so the cost analysis is different; for something like this it's just opportunity costs. Realistically I never seriously considered it but it was the principle of the matter that bothered me. Their refusal to respond appropriately despite clear fault and my name being first on the letterhead, so to speak, was surprising. Made me wonder how other customers with a less concerning bark, or where a manufacturing defect was less hilariously obvious, would fare. In the end my time was more important than principles and I just acquired a few "rentals" while they took their time fixing it. By that point all my principles could muster was a pithy letter citing the high cost of returns/reverse supply chain costs. To their credit, the US support was great, would have kept a customer had the overseas people not gotten involved. We are way off topic though, but ya, hard pass on their hornet grip - rather spend 2x at realsim/VKB/Virp

One can only hope Virpil and potentially Winwing will provide enough competition to make TM change their ways. They are the epitome of how not to run a business. Poor communication, poor service and nothing new besides rudder pedals for years. Unfortunately flight simulation seems to have taken a back seat to their driving sim business. For years they were the only game in town. Not so anymore.

I am late to the party but here are my two cents. The closest thing that you can buy on the market today to a F-16 Hotas is the TM HOTAS Cougar. Force mods have been around for the cougar for a long time, started with the FCC and now at FSSB R3L (in terms of plug and play-ish solutions.). If you have making a simpit in mind at some point my recommendation would be the FCC3 as it is small in form factor and fits into a replicated force transducer block. But if you don’t plan on doing a simpit at some point realsimulator’s FSSB R1-2 stuff are top notch and have a prettty software.

Some alternatives to it would be the Warthog+FSSB R3L base or a custom X65 with a fitted 16 grip. You can also go for the full realsimulator solution with their new F-16 grip if the price is not a problem. Also “if money is not s problem” you can go balls-to-the-walls with a real F-16 SSC with a transducer. The F-16 grip and the A-10 grip is a tiny bit different in terms of ergos and the cms buttons are different. Other than thar the warthog with the lightning is a pretty solid and up-to-date solution.