[BUG/ DCS BUG] FM: Sinks to much during bank & groove. - ED Forums
 


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Old 07-12-2019, 11:25 PM   #1
CoBlue
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Default [BUG/ DCS BUG] FM: Sinks to much during bank & groove.

Latest OB.
Standard CASE I, during abeam turn & in the groove (trap config. DLC in/out. speed-brk out, <54k ibs, 30° bank. On AoA). F-14 looses a lot of lift.

Since 2 updates I/we noticed a high sink rate during the abeam turn & when in the groove. Forcing to use excessive afterburner use, resulting in very unstable approaches & wave-off's.

Most noticeable during: ISA +5, wind 0kt, Carrier-speed 25kt.

Less, but still noticeable during: ISA +5, H-wind 15kt, Carrier-speed 10kt.

Seems like turning abeam into a x-wind & then a head-wind "helps" with the lift, which shouldn't be a factor, if at the same IAS/AoA.

I think HB should check what's going on with the "lift-FM" in land.config when there is & isn't wind involved.
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Last edited by IronMike; 07-16-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:03 AM   #2
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I filed a bug 2 days ago they are investigating as they had already noticed something wrong.

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Old 07-13-2019, 03:20 AM   #3
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I hope they get it sorted soon. The Tomcat was a dream to fly a few updates ago, but I've had to put a lot of my video projects on hold because its handling around the boat is just too awful now.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:06 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealius View Post
I hope they get it sorted soon. The Tomcat was a dream to fly a few updates ago, but I've had to put a lot of my video projects on hold because its handling around the boat is just too awful now.
I completely agree. The big FM patch about a month ago made an already very likable aircraft a dream to fly around the boat. Stable in AOA and very responsive to throttle changes with lots of power in reserve. But since the latest patch the handling in the pattern and in the groove is just awful.
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:33 AM   #5
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This flight model constant tuning seems so weird. At the beginning it was the rocket ship as it should be, then it was nerfed to lazy. Now it's better and still people complaining about it. How are we suppose to know how the Tomcat should fly?
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:16 AM   #6
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Just to clarify guys: What we noticed is, that it seems as after a sortie the weight might not get deleted, or for some reason the drag of the expanded payloads remains. Which then results in excessive use of power.

However the stability has increased in the latest patch. If I fly a case 1 mission (like form instant actions), I have no issue whatsoever with sinking, banking or excessive throttle work, it is pretty much a solid 3 wire all way through, just yesterday I tested a couple case 1s again. 800 stable level through the break, good drop and lift reaction with gear and flaps, drop to 600 with dlc, easily got it on speed, 450 in the 90 - all pretty much without breaking a sweat.

One thing what the latest patch introduced due to the increased stability is a much more direct stick input. So if you had previously your curves set too high, this will like result in the aircraft actually feeling less stable than it was. The delayed inputs also might cause a bit out of configuration approach, which results than in counter actions like excessive throttle work or power requirements.

A good test for example is lowering the curves to 0, or even trying with a minimal negative curve (max like -3 I would suggest), and see if you gain more control back and feel more stability.

The better the stick, the less curves you should need and less deadzones as well. Please try and see if that helps. Thank you.
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:06 PM   #7
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I have a floor mounted T-50 with a long extension and fly with 0 curve. My previous experience (before last week's patch) was that after trimming to on-speed in the downwind, basically no more stick input in pitch was required for wings-level flight. For the base turn some back stick was required to stay on-speed AOA, but once rolling out in the groove I would basically let go of the stick (except to control roll) and fly the ball with throttle. Once trimmed, the aircraft was very stable in staying on-speed even with power changes. This seems no longer possible.

Last edited by MBot; 07-13-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
Just to clarify guys: What we noticed is, that it seems as after a sortie the weight might not get deleted, or for some reason the drag of the expanded payloads remains. Which then results in excessive use of power.

However the stability has increased in the latest patch. If I fly a case 1 mission (like form instant actions), I have no issue whatsoever with sinking, banking or excessive throttle work, it is pretty much a solid 3 wire all way through, just yesterday I tested a couple case 1s again. 800 stable level through the break, good drop and lift reaction with gear and flaps, drop to 600 with dlc, easily got it on speed, 450 in the 90 - all pretty much without breaking a sweat.

One thing what the latest patch introduced due to the increased stability is a much more direct stick input. So if you had previously your curves set too high, this will like result in the aircraft actually feeling less stable than it was. The delayed inputs also might cause a bit out of configuration approach, which results than in counter actions like excessive throttle work or power requirements.

A good test for example is lowering the curves to 0, or even trying with a minimal negative curve (max like -3 I would suggest), and see if you gain more control back and feel more stability.

The better the stick, the less curves you should need and less deadzones as well. Please try and see if that helps. Thank you.
What about the DLC behavior? Prior to the recent updates DLC would increase/decrease sink rate with very minimal AoA change--perhaps one or two degrees. In the current version, extending DLC causes AoA to increase excessively. Stowing DLC respectively causes an excessive decrease in AoA as well. When I say "excessive," I mean in comparison to previous iterations of the flight model.
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
I tested a couple case 1s again. 800 stable level through the break, good drop and lift reaction with gear and flaps, drop to 600 with dlc, easily got it on speed, 450 in the 90 - all pretty much without breaking a sweat.
Have you tried CASE I, with 0 wind & boat doing 25-30kt? The "sinking" is very noticeable in this condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
The better the stick, the less curves you should need and less deadzones as well. Please try and see if that helps. Thank you.
I tested & I see no difference in different curves. IMHO it's about the FM's, lift, drag & power-response in land-config. /Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealius View Post
What about the DLC behavior? Prior to the recent updates DLC would increase/decrease sink rate with very minimal AoA change--perhaps one or two degrees. In the current version, extending DLC causes AoA to increase excessively. Stowing DLC respectively causes an excessive decrease in AoA as well. When I say "excessive," I mean in comparison to previous iterations of the flight model.
Agreed. There is a 4kt increase to AoA speed with DLC active. Why the excessive AoA changes?

And that the DLC disconnects all the time due to need of afterburner use doesn't make it easier.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoBlue View Post
Have you tried CASE I, with 0 wind & boat doing 25-30kt? The "sinking" is very noticeable in this condition.
Carrier speed and WoD have zero influence on your turning performance.

I never have to use anything near full MIL in the pattern. Even at max trap weight with full fighter loadout, 5500-6000 PPH is enough to stay on AoA with a slight descend (200-300fpm). I don't want to step on anyone's toes but the problem may be more user (pilot) related. The Tomcat needs increadibly smooth power and pitch inputs in the pattern, otherwise you will find yourself overcorrecting the whole time. Low AoA situations are especially dangerous. A few degrees above optimum will require a significant thrust addition to get back on AoA, maybe even full MIL or AB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
Just to clarify guys: What we noticed is, that it seems as after a sortie the weight might not get deleted, or for some reason the drag of the expanded payloads remains. Which then results in excessive use of power.
Thats interesting. I did get the impression that after finishing a sortie firing off all my missiles and being rather light (about 48k lbs), I needed more thrust in the pattern than I'm used to when flying clean from the start. Maybe it wasn't my imagination after all
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