Black Shark 3?

When discussions like this come around I usually point out the LASER-IRIS-RF/IR selector switch in the AH-64A on the gunner's missile control panel as an example.

Well, it pretty much comes down to, do ED want to sell us an upgraded EXPERIMENTAL copter or not? :)

I've seen the news, you don't need evidence to back up your beliefs when Russia is involved, just believe what you wish to be true; third pylon ftw!!

You NEVER know what Russia is hiding. Putin always has the last laugh.

You know he's going to come out of the mist in the end, flying RedWolf with Kim Jung Un as his weapons officer. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv4n50yu2Hw

Why are the Su-33 AoA index lights set up the opposite way to every other aircraft - including those in the Russian AF ?

 

"Why would you do it this way" is in no way or means actual evidence that the something isn't actually done that way.

You are missing the point. There is always a logic why something is done in specific way. The question is that what is the logic there. Not is it in DCS reflecting the reality or not.

Like the same question. In a BVR combat a missile avoidance is inevitable, why you need RWR to help you tell you where the missile is coming and how much you have time.

Why is the SPO-15 positioned to bottom right in cockpit, when in every else SPO-10 was set just near the HUD?

Like why you would set such a important instrument so far, so low? Is the logic that sun doesn't shine there so it is easy to read? Why fix the lamps then? Was the logic that when pulling high-G that you can more easily see it there, than if it was front of you?

Why you have in a weapon station selector hat a A-A mode?

Not a question is it there in reality, but why it is there!

My guess ? Let's say you're right that putting the Igla on a pylon does get the bore-sight circle onto the HUD & give you the audio cue. You don't want to have to hold the nose pointed at the target while you decide whether to launch / wait for the target to get in range / manoeuvre to an optimal launch position, maybe that forward A2A switch un-cages the seeker & at the appropriate time you launch.

If you are not pointing the nose on the target then on what you are going to fire it? If you are preparing to launch IGLA missile against your air threat, why you would have any other weapon in your use?

Think about it.

You select IGLA station, you get boresight there. The IGLA doesn't have uncage feature (AFAIK), it is looking straight ahead before launch. So you need to aim the IGLA straight ahead to the target to get it find the target and keep it there until launch. After the launch the IGLA will fly with intercept to the target, so it has there the gimbal capability.

So what you anyways need to do, is to select the IGLA, aim it to boresight and when you hear the tone, launch it. We are talking portable shoulder fired missile here, not a A-A missile but S-A.

And it is not just the collective weapon station selector that is there odd thing (Inner/Outer/All/AA)

It is as well the weapons control panel (PUI-800) (below TVM).

There you have dedicated buttons for jettison A-A missiles (No Function), all except Vikhr, and ATGM jettison selector (launch all Vikhr without guidance). And then you have "Armed/Disarmed weapon jettison arming switch).

So there you have again something odd.

Why not have "Inner station jettison" and "outer station jettison"?

Why have separate A-A weapon jettison, if you are going to have AA missiles next to Vikhr, when you could just use the "All except Vikhr".

Why to have "A-A missiles" if IGLA would replace Vikhr in outer station?

Why to have "ATGM jettison" if there would be just anything else on outer as well?

If you have just a four stations, inner and outer. Wouldn't it be more logical just to have "Jettison inner" and "jettison outer" buttons?

Like, doesn't the pilot know that what weapons he has in the inner/outer pylons?

There are four weapon station selectors (or modes).

Three dedicated weapon type jettison buttons/switches.

Again, what is the logic in that configuration. Not about question was it so in the real KA-50 when they accessed it!

Why to have separate jettison between ATGM and AA? Or all and AA and ATGM?

Wouldn't it be just simpler that you hit "Jettison outer" and if there is a Vikhr, then all of them are launched unguided and warhead disabled if not otherwise configured and if you hit "Jettison inner" then all what ever there is gets jettisoned? If you want all out, just hit the two buttons!

Read some Time ago, but never was able to find it again, the Wingtips Countermeasure can repleaced with a third Row Hardpoint.

 

 

But after as Weta sad, there is no evidence for it, never know how plaussible the Sources are...

Yes, I have as well read that. You can pull out the flare launchers and insert there the dual A-A missile rack.

But that as well sounds so.... so... So odd.

Like why you again punch out the counter measurement systems that you would need against fighters or other IR missiles? :-D

It is partially understandable that you don't have flares in a Mig-23 interceptor flying at high altitude against bombers, as your launched flares will get dragged so far away from you at the high speed intercept that there is no use of them. And if you meet the fighters, the speed is your key.

And then in helicopters, when they learned that flares dispensers are very important....

But it is logical that it could be possible.

Doubt it as the third pylon is attached on the wing before the wingtips, so I guess it actually requires a different (bigger?) wing with an extra attachment point.

Logical explanation for that would be that having third pylon under/next to the wingtip pod doesn't require rewiring as the wires would be there, and only additional pylon welding, as it is anyways just dedicated in KA-52 for IGLA missiles. And this way KA-52 has flares dispenser AND IGLA combination, without giving up the flare dispenser for the IGLA missiles.

I'd expect that the throttle A2A control doesn't do anything as it was probably intended for a future modification (3-pylon wing) which never came about on the Ka-50, but was installed on production Ka-52.

That is as well my expectation, but there is as well the dedicated AA missile jettison button, separated from the Vikhr jettison switch and all other stations.

Why to have three different jettison buttons, for AA, Vikhr and everything else than Vikhr?

The black button jettisons AA missiles

The red button jettisons all except Vikhr (outer station)

The red switch jettisons all Vikhr, except anything else

So, the black button does not jettison Vikhr nor anything (else) that is in inner station. Meaning you can have Vikhr + inner left, when AA missiles gets jettisoned.

The red button would jettison anything that there is in Inner or Outer stations, except the Vikhr. So you are left Vikhr anyways, but if you have four stations with rockets, you drop all of them. But not the AA missiles.

The red switch jettisons only Vikhr by firing them unguided. No AA, no rockets, bombs etc gets jettisoned.

Logical explanation for that would be that having third pylon under/next to the wingtip pod doesn't require rewiring as the wires would be there, and only additional pylon welding, as it is anyways just dedicated in KA-52 for IGLA missiles. And this way KA-52 has flares dispenser AND IGLA combination, without giving up the flare dispenser for the IGLA missiles.

 

 

 

 

That is as well my expectation, but there is as well the dedicated AA missile jettison button, separated from the Vikhr jettison switch and all other stations.

 

Why to have three different jettison buttons, for AA, Vikhr and everything else than Vikhr?

 

[ATTACH]211240[/ATTACH]

 

The black button jettisons AA missiles

The red button jettisons all except Vikhr (outer station)

The red switch jettisons all Vikhr, except anything else

 

So, the black button does not jettison Vikhr nor anything (else) that is in inner station. Meaning you can have Vikhr + inner left, when AA missiles gets jettisoned.

The red button would jettison anything that there is in Inner or Outer stations, except the Vikhr. So you are left Vikhr anyways, but if you have four stations with rockets, you drop all of them. But not the AA missiles.

The red switch jettisons only Vikhr by firing them unguided. No AA, no rockets, bombs etc gets jettisoned.

It is probably not a good translation - For the black button, it actually says in Cyrillic - Avar Pusk, this means emergency launch. And the red button says in Cyrillic - Avar Sbros - this means emergency drop/jettison, definitely not launch. So there is either incorrect Cyrillic or English description :)

It is probably not a good translation -

 

For the black button, it actually says in Cyrillic - Avar Pusk, this means emergency launch.

"“АВАР ПУСК”. Emergency jettison of AA missiles. No function"

So does it matter how you actually get the AA missiles out, emergency launch or drop?

Thinking that you have the IGLA containers mounted, you launch the missile out, instead drop the container?

Same thing as with Vikhr, launch the missiles from the containers, instead drop the containers.

And the red button says in Cyrillic - Avar Sbros - this means emergency drop/jettison, definitely not launch. So there is either incorrect Cyrillic or English description :)

“АВАР СБРОС” (Emergency launch button). Used to jettison all external stores except “Vikhr” ATGM."

Again likely the "launch" is to drop/jettison all that you hang, like bombs, rocket pods (heavy drag) etc, so the whole pylon is dropped?

Of course it sounds more logical that you select the pylon (that you can see just above the jettison buttons) and then you will choose with "Black" and "Red" button that how do you want to get the station emptied? Right?

Why they Black and Red are next to each other, having a Armed/Unarmed switch next to them.

“ВЗР – НЕ ВЗР” (Armed/Disarmed weapon jettison arming switch). This switch determines if the weapon will be armed prior to being jettisoned. "ВЗР" = armed, "НЕ ВЗР" = disarmed for jettison."

And then a own dedicated spring loaded switch/button for the task:

"ATGM jettison selector “УСКОР РАЗГРУЗ” switch. When this switch is held down, all Vikhr ATGM will launch quickly off the launcher with no guidance."

I think you nailed it there, Fri. Waiting on that third rail upgrade.

So there is either incorrect Cyrillic or English description :)

Ain't it correct in cyrillic, but just bad translation?

I think you nailed it there, Fri. Waiting on that third rail upgrade.

I wouldn't wait anything like that. As there is no actual proof of such existing. But there could be possibility for it, at least theoretical.

It is just so odd that the logical design in the collective and the weapons configuration panel doesn't really work as is without a third dedicated AA station.

But it is so confusing that if even translation is badly off, it doesn't help at all to find how both of those should work.

It even comes to my mind that maybe the rack for Vikhr can be shared with the IGLA? Meaning that you remove the two top Vikhr from it and replace them with IGLA. Now you have Vikhr and IGLA containers in the same station.

You would have a 8 Vikhr and 4 IGLA.

And now suddenly things start to be more sensible as your Inner/Outer station selector does select exactly the normal A-G weapons. But the A-A mode would specifically activate the IGLA's.

And if the translation would be right in the KA-50 manual, then the black button for jettison would launch the IGLA's separately from the Vikhr's as well from the inner stations.

And red button would then eject what ever you have in the inner station (or outer station if it is not Vikhr rack). And then the red switch would jettison all Vikhr (but not the inner stations or IGLA) by launching them.

Now IMHO it would make sense as it is in the manual and in the collective and weapons configuration panel.

Logical explanation for that would be that having third pylon under/next to the wingtip pod doesn't require rewiring as the wires would be there, and only additional pylon welding, as it is anyways just dedicated in KA-52 for IGLA missiles. And this way KA-52 has flares dispenser AND IGLA combination, without giving up the flare dispenser for the IGLA missiles.

 

 

 

 

That is as well my expectation, but there is as well the dedicated AA missile jettison button, separated from the Vikhr jettison switch and all other stations.

 

Why to have three different jettison buttons, for AA, Vikhr and everything else than Vikhr?

 

[ATTACH]211240[/ATTACH]

 

The black button jettisons AA missiles

The red button jettisons all except Vikhr (outer station)

The red switch jettisons all Vikhr, except anything else

 

So, the black button does not jettison Vikhr nor anything (else) that is in inner station. Meaning you can have Vikhr + inner left, when AA missiles gets jettisoned.

The red button would jettison anything that there is in Inner or Outer stations, except the Vikhr. So you are left Vikhr anyways, but if you have four stations with rockets, you drop all of them. But not the AA missiles.

The red switch jettisons only Vikhr by firing them unguided. No AA, no rockets, bombs etc gets jettisoned.

because there are four pylons that can be loaded with different payloads and they should not necessarily be symmetric, they can be loaded with Vikhr and Igla same time like this:

from left to right: Vikhr - B8 - fuel tank - Igla

with this, pilot can jettison Vikhr pylon Missiles while he saves the Igla Missiles and inner pylons or vice versa.

the down side of this payload is weight tendencies that make flight hard for pilot. but this problem can be reduced by continuous trim and changing the amount carrying payloads which needs calculations.

but unfortunately right now in DCS we can not change the amount of fuel of external fuel tanks or rockets of rocket pods or missiles of APU-6 launcher.

When discussions like this come around I usually point out the LASER-IRIS-RF/IR selector switch in the AH-64A on the gunner's missile control panel as an example.

Care to expound on that? Went right over my head.

The funny thing is that ED already knows that answers and they're not telling us. I can imagine them in their office making laugh of our small funny chats.

The funny thing is that ED already knows that answers and they're not telling us. I can imagine them in their office making laugh of our small funny chats.

Well, I'm laughing, because as a customer, I'm the one they have to convince to buy their product. :lol:

And after 11 years of this debate, I have tired of it.

Care to expound on that? Went right over my head.

On the AH-64A, the CPG (copilot/gunner) has a missile control panel, and on that panel is a selector switch for the missile seeker type: LASER, RF/IR, and IRIS. It might as well be welded into the LASER position. The production AH-64A was never capable of employing RF or IR missiles (the D-model finally got them), and IRIS was probably the ASRAAM (AIM-132) concept that never really got off the ground.

The funny thing is that ED already knows that answers and they're not telling us. I can imagine them in their office making laugh of our small funny chats.

They did tell us. We're just not listening.

Well, I'm laughing, because as a customer, I'm the one they have to convince to buy their product. :lol:

You're already convinced, we know you're not buying it. It won't have a third rail for Igla, and it won't have FLIR.

Oh thanks, Alpha. I didn't realize you worked for and represent ED.

It is probably not a good translation - For the black button, it actually says in Cyrillic - Avar Pusk, this means emergency launch. And the red button says in Cyrillic - Avar Sbros - this means emergency drop/jettison, definitely not launch. So there is either incorrect Cyrillic or English description :)

So does it matter how you actually get the AA missiles out, emergency launch or drop?

Thinking that you have the IGLA containers mounted, you launch the missile out, instead drop the container?

 

Same thing as with Vikhr, launch the missiles from the containers, instead drop the containers.

 

 

Again likely the "launch" is to drop/jettison all that you hang, like bombs, rocket pods (heavy drag) etc, so the whole pylon is dropped?

 

Of course it sounds more logical that you select the pylon (that you can see just above the jettison buttons) and then you will choose with "Black" and "Red" button that how do you want to get the station emptied? Right?

 

Why they Black and Red are next to each other, having a Armed/Unarmed switch next to them.

 

 

And then a own dedicated spring loaded switch/button for the task:

Fri13, my understanding of what Dr_Arrow suggest about the black button is that the Cyrillic text doesn't even mention AA missiles, but that it is for launching everything except Vikhr (and not AA either since it can't carry them). If that is the case the translation is really bad.

And the red for just dropping everything (except Vikhr). The translation is already proven bad here.

Why having both? Just guessing, but appropriate button depends on your location. If over settlements, city's, friendly ground troops you don't want to just drop everything on people's heads. But otherwise you might prefer dropping it to avoid scattering high risk munition over a bigger, undefined area ahead of you.

You also most often would prefer drop/launch it unarmed, but if you have some enemies ahead of you, you might as well launch it armed, if you get lucky you might hit something at least while trying to save your skin. And of course, if armed when launching the munition will detonate at ground impact and be of no future risk.

Just my two cents.

Oh thanks, Alpha. I didn't realize you worked for and represent ED.

I'm glad I could clear that up for you.

Have they said they are actually going to do this? It would do alot for improving CBU's and other bombs/rockets in general.

It should be coming at some point, but likely needs again some heavy reworking with the DCS engine to allow such simulation when explosions happens.

But considering that we now have a GPU's capable for raytracing..... it shouldn't be a problem.

There are some very heavy and complex radar simulators, that are actually doing it by simulating audio. Likely they use the EAX technology from Sound Blaster from 90's to virtualize audio and that way generate very accurate reflections, echoing etc and that way get the radar feedback.

Now we have raytracing so why not use it to simulate the fragmentation directions, spread and then calculate from hitpoints the penetration?

Should be fairly easy really compared to ray tracing light, to trace few hundred/thousand fragments....

I'm glad I could clear that up for you.

:megalol:

because there are four pylons that can be loaded with different payloads and they should not necessarily be symmetric, they can be loaded with Vikhr and Igla same time like this:

 

 

from left to right: Vikhr - B8 - fuel tank - Igla

 

 

 

with this, pilot can jettison Vikhr pylon Missiles while he saves the Igla Missiles and inner pylons or vice versa.

Sure, that possibility I have gone through already, like there are the photos of the training where KA-50 has a container on one wing and two Vikhrs on another (and those Vikhrs are on outer attachments and top of each others).

But you can't select those individual pylons already, if you select "Inner" and you have example bombs and rockets there, then you are having only either one until you are emptied the station. Like you can't select bomb until you have fired all rockets.

The order goes in those cases from left to right through #1-#4 stations.

the down side of this payload is weight tendencies that make flight hard for pilot. but this problem can be reduced by continuous trim and changing the amount carrying payloads which needs calculations.

The challenge is that you can't use all the stations in wanted order than 1-4. So example if you set on station #4 a Vikhr and station #1 Kh-25L, then you can't select Vikhr before you launch the 25, even when both are in outer stations.

but unfortunately right now in DCS we can not change the amount of fuel of external fuel tanks or rockets of rocket pods or missiles of APU-6 launcher.

Lots of things are missing/lacking. But now after 10 years we are finally getting "all the bugs fixed".

Fri13, my understanding of what Dr_Arrow suggest about the black button is that the Cyrillic text doesn't even mention AA missiles, but that it is for launching everything except Vikhr (and not AA either since it can't carry them). If that is the case the translation is really bad.

And the red for just dropping everything (except Vikhr). The translation is already proven bad here.

Why having both? Just guessing, but appropriate button depends on your location. If over settlements, city's, friendly ground troops you don't want to just drop everything on people's heads. But otherwise you might prefer dropping it to avoid scattering high risk munition over a bigger, undefined area ahead of you.

You also most often would prefer drop/launch it unarmed, but if you have some enemies ahead of you, you might as well launch it armed, if you get lucky you might hit something at least while trying to save your skin. And of course, if armed when launching the munition will detonate at ground impact and be of no future risk.

Just my two cents.

Yep Holton, this is what I am suggesting. It is probably a classical Russian system and I only extrapolate that it works similarly like in L-39ZA or other Russian aircraft. If you have malfunction and cannot fire missiles/rockets (S-8,S-13,KH-25ML,etc.), you will use the emergency launch button. If you have bombs or you want to drop the rocket container (S-8, S-13, etc.) then you use emergency drop and you can do this in armed mode or unarmed for the bombs.

 

They did tell us. We're just not listening.

 

 

Then, please clarify it for me. And I'm serious, maybe you read or understood something I bypassed.

It should be coming at some point, but likely needs again some heavy reworking with the DCS engine to allow such simulation when explosions happens.

 

But considering that we now have a GPU's capable for raytracing..... it shouldn't be a problem.

 

There are some very heavy and complex radar simulators, that are actually doing it by simulating audio. Likely they use the EAX technology from Sound Blaster from 90's to virtualize audio and that way generate very accurate reflections, echoing etc and that way get the radar feedback.

 

Now we have raytracing so why not use it to simulate the fragmentation directions, spread and then calculate from hitpoints the penetration?

 

Should be fairly easy really compared to ray tracing light, to trace few hundred/thousand fragments....

While that sort of capability is restricted to a relatively small number of graphics cards it doesn't seem practical to have as anything other than a single player only option.

Then, please clarify it for me. And I'm serious, maybe you read or understood something I bypassed.

They posted an announcement with text and pictures. We are getting what you can see in the pictures and read in the text. If it wasn't in the text and not in the pictures, we aren't getting it.

Speculating about what wasn't written or shown can be an interesting exercise, but in my experience it's a waste of time and energy. Your experience may differ, and that's cool, too.