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MiG vs Sabre-- Climb Rate


SeaQuark

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Well while I would agree in some performance areas, the gunsight on the Sabre does not work like it should, neither do the 50cals that should have incendiary ammo and not spray like a shotgun. Tons of smoke too, which is correct, but really heavy in the game.

 

The Sabre pilots had a G suit which is not modeled very well and doesn't really make a difference, neither is the assisted controls which should make a difference for the Sabre.... Like I said earlier,it seems like the best of the Mig is modeled, and the weaknesses of the sabre. There is MUCH Soviet propaganda also... We know they where masters at that.

 

 

Who cares about kill ratio... just make them correctly...hummm


Edited by Harley Davidson
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Here's another interesting question: Who had air superiority over the Korea Peninsula? How many times were UN bases struck during the war? Which side had 3 aircraft type strike raids? 1 for AAA, 1 for Crack and Burn and 1 for CAP. Oh, and another for CAS too. I have heard comments how MiG Alley was called that because they were so awesome up there. The Honchos were good, but you could also say that the Yalu river was called MiG Alley because that's were they where they were found, and killed. About 10 feet from their Chinese sanctuaries and a couple rear guard bases year Pyongyang. The Sabres flew CAP over the north all the way to the Chinese border, with drop tanks and flew all the way back down. The MiGs did well against the bomber early on. No surprise there...no wait it WAS a surprise...for a little while.

 

The latest update of the Sabre is OK. I find the overall stall instability of both prop and jet ships to be a little exaggerated in player aircraft. Prop fighters have wicked low speed torque roll and accelerated stall. How fast do you have to go in a P-51 to fly a simple loop? RPM and MP settings included? The Sabre is a little better in this regard, even with swept wings, but no torque effect. And yes, the 4 bladed Mustang prop is a factor.

 

The guns are a big let down in the Sabre. That's been hashed out by AZ and others over the years. Barrel heat and rate of fire were problems. Both were NOT changed so it got worse when rate was increased. It's looking like we have pretty good evidence that the muzzle velocity of the M3 Browning shells are too low. Anywhere from 860 to 908 m/s could be correct. I just haven't nailed down good sources for the grain and loud out of the period. BMG .50 at 700 grains should be about 908 m/s.

 

These are fun models but they are also complicated. It's not a huge embarrassment to have issues with the builds. The hard part is finding the time, after the fact to chase them all down and fix them with good evidence.

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It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Bingo! And look at that track in the last one! Hardly any drop at all. :D Was it level flight or vertical? Not turning at any rate. Some of the earlier shots were.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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From what I know one had to be body builder to pull G with the MiG and that combined with the lack of g suite they could not outmaneuver the sabres even tho it was technically possible.

 

Also the majority of the pilots were koreans with poor training, honchos were rare. UN had the air superiority all the time and while Migs were a challenge they was not capable to change that.

 

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Believe me... I'm NOT asking for the Sabre to dominate in anyway because I'll be flying the Mig-15 too as I have the module... I'm just asking for the realistic pros and cons being correctly modeled.

 

 

 

Both aircraft have their strengths and weaknesses.. this is what makes them fun to fly and even harder to master...

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Another thing I remembered from that MiG DCS video... The 15 had a pretty thick wing. This helped it's climb rate but then you also see the gigantic wing fences installed to control the natural cross cord turbulence that results from the large displacement of the air flow over the top of the wing and the sweep angle. Both the thickness and these fences added drag, limiting it's top speed. It's no surprise that the North American Sabre had a laminar flow wing with great high speed and efficiency, just like the Mustang. The slats were added back for low speed stability and lift at high AOA. Those would be sweet in the vertical loop fights the AI likes to do.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Balance is in another room. There was never any balance in reality, nor in DCS. As for G suit - civilians often read and take into account only tactical numbers and dont know about operational things. Evgeniy Pepelyayev stressed that the G suit let the Sabre pilots do more sorties - basically 8 sorties of a Sabre for 3 sorties of a MiG. You still pull that Gs in combat - its the matter of how much do you need to rest afterwards. Its not Sabre overpulling the MiG - its more Sabres in the air.


Edited by Кош

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Balance is in another room. There was never any balance in reality, nor in DCS. As for G suit - civilians often read and take into account only tactical numbers and dont know about operational things. Evgeniy Pepelyayev stressed that the G suit let the Sabre pilots do more sorties - basically 8 sorties of a Sabre for 3 sorties of a MiG. You still pull that Gs in combat - its the matter of how much do you need to rest afterwards. Its not Sabre overpulling the MiG - its more Sabres in the air.

 

"A g-suit, or the more accurately named anti-g suit, is a flight suit worn by aviators and astronauts who are subject to high levels of acceleration force (g). It is designed to prevent a black-out and g-LOC (g-induced loss of consciousness) caused by the blood pooling in the lower part of the body when under acceleration, thus depriving the brain of blood.[1] Black-out and g-LOC has caused a number of fatal aircraft accidents".

 

 

Sorry but I strongly disagree, The G suit was used to prevent black out a high G, thats why they are still used today even though there is no need for 8 sorties a day in time of peace.

As for balance, I never even suggested balance. I wouldn't want that in DCS... It would make it unrealistic. I just know that the Sabre is "Down tuned" in a few areas for some strange reason. ie: how bad the 50 cals perform when there is actual dogfight camera footage that shows they are not correct.... that is not propaganda... Also the gun sight on the Sabre.. If it was not that great, the Soviets wouldn't have had their panties in a knot trying to find out how they were made and recreating the sight for their own aircraft....


Edited by Harley Davidson
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"A g-suit, or the more accurately named anti-g suit, is a flight suit worn by aviators and astronauts who are subject to high levels of acceleration force (g). It is designed to prevent a black-out and g-LOC (g-induced loss of consciousness) caused by the blood pooling in the lower part of the body when under acceleration, thus depriving the brain of blood.[1] Black-out and g-LOC has caused a number of fatal aircraft accidents".

 

 

Sorry but I strongly disagree, The G suit was used to prevent black out a high G, thats why they are still used today even though there is no need for 8 sorties a day in time of peace.

As for balance, I never even suggested balance. I wouldn't want that in DCS... It would make it unrealistic. I just know that the Sabre is "Down tuned" in a few areas for some strange reason. ie: how bad the 50 cals perform when there is actual dogfight camera footage that shows they are not correct.... that is not propaganda... Also the gun sight on the Sabre.. If it was not that great, the Soviets wouldn't have had their panties in a knot trying to find out how they were made and recreating the sight for their own aircraft....

 

 

DCS damage model is oriented towards missles. We have to wait for a new "warbird" one which is in the works. :beer:

The sight representation in the sim is better than migs sight in the sim, auto ranging works. Of course it has limitations, its a very early technology! And all this educates us, the simmers, about how much skill the aviators of that time had to have.

 

Life support towards G tolerance in Sabre and say F-16C is hard to compare. Its was one of the first ones operational. And ED/BST had posts about actually researching that(and implementing tuneable G-tolerance mechanic in the first place).

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DCS damage model is oriented towards missles. We have to wait for a new "warbird" one which is in the works. :beer:

The sight representation in the sim is better than migs sight in the sim, auto ranging works. Of course it has limitations, its a very early technology! And all this educates us, the simmers, about how much skill the aviators of that time had to have.

 

Life support towards G tolerance in Sabre and say F-16C is hard to compare. Its was one of the first ones operational. And ED/BST had posts about actually researching that(and implementing tuneable G-tolerance mechanic in the first place).

 

Why you bring f-16 here ? From what I have researched, the g-suite gave about 1G advantage for the Sabres and combining that the Sabre pilots was much more trained to sustain high G loads than the majority of MiG pilosts(mostly koreans and chinese) and on top of that, the lack of hidraulics made pulling the stick for high G very very difficult, Migs could not outmanuever the Sabres, therefore they used their climb and ceiling advantage in most of the fights.

 

There were also other limitations, the cockpit was very bad ergonomics and was not comfortable at all, they could not seat for long, communication was bad due to language issues and just see how complex is to change frequency in the MiG while Sabre has preset channels.

The heating was also bad and the aircraft was not very reliable.

 

Sabres was outnumbered in 3-4 to 1 in most engagements as sabre squadrons were limited while MiGs were in high numbers in China but the Pilot training, the above limitations of the MiGs and the more precise sight made most of the fights to be won by the Sabres. Honchos were rare and came a bit later in the war, when it was obvious that Korean and Chinese pilots were not capable to challenge American Pilots.

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I think most of the issues that are attributed to the MiG 15 in DCS are due to players flying against AI. The MiG is just about perfect or pretty close in the game... It really doesn't need anything.

 

 

We need to remember that flying against AI will be tough due to the fact that they don't have the near stalls over the top and don't slow down due to being at the edge of the envelope. AI also are able to predict the players every move and can counter it perfectly.... No biggie.

 

 

Flying against the human player in a MiG is way better as they have to "think, plan and maneuver".

 

 

Just a few thing that I've noticed on the Sabre is I actually loose speed in a dive as I'm barrel rolling or turning... just odd.. It also likes to hover around 200-230knts in a turn and is really sluggish when trying to accelerate from that speed...... I tried it with both fuel tanks on and full.... there is not much difference.. try it!

 

 

I know we get wrapped up in what happened in history with the stats and stuff but ALL the pilots we fly against in MiGs with be Honchos... There are guys that have been flying for many years flying the MiGs and if I get a kill against a human player(Honcho) in a MiG... I have defiantly done something right!

 

 

I'm not sure why Belsimtek needs to keep some of the issues with the Sabre the same, I can go back to 2015 to find threads asking for a few tweaks to acceleration, guns shooting the way they should and the assisted sights being tweaked... Not much but closer to the realistic equivalent. But there you go... we can always hope right?


Edited by Harley Davidson
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the g-suite gave about 1G advantage for the Sabres

And it has in DCS. Its just harder to discriminate that in the game than in reality.

Yes, the bot is flying in ideal conditions, and is ideal itself. But very unimaginative in terms of tactics.

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And it has in DCS. Its just harder to discriminate that in the game than in reality.

Yes, the bot is flying in ideal conditions, and is ideal itself. But very unimaginative in terms of tactics.

 

 

Yes! I totally agree! Oh well...Its better than nothing though. I really like the MiG-15, much fun to fly and I can really tell the difference between a human player and AI.

 

 

 

I tried a MiG -15 against an "Good to Excellent" Mig-15 AI and have the same frustrations as I do with a Sabre!!! So its not the MiG at all


Edited by Harley Davidson
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  • 2 months later...

I got upset last night after I dl'd the beta update. But of course I realized what had happened. It over wrote my tweaked "inferior sabre" .lua file. and shell.lua.

 

Two things that defintely need to be changed:

 

F-86.lua barrel warp and shot heat equations. Just wrong. Effective range out to about 2000, 2100 meters. A 50 cal can go a half a mile with out much drop.

 

Shell.lua. M2_50 regular and APIT. Muzzle velocity stupid low. Just compare the game arc to gun camera footage. 830??? More like 900m/s is tons better. Also active life range out to 9 units instead of 7. Heck even 8 would be nice.

 

Then you start to see the reality of high muzzle v gun vs. low muzzle v cannon. That's the truth. Physics makes you balance the punch with muzzle velocity. This comes into play with g loading too and is another reason why the Sabre thrived over MiG alley. High g maneuvers, enabled by the g suit and flying stab, also limited the effectiveness of the low muzzle v cannon. MiGs could not pull enough lead to score hits on a high g Sabre. Period. Boots Blesse states this in his Dog Fights interview. When all these parts don't work correctly we have a problem. See my sig. MiG Alley was the rear guard of N Korea. The Yalu river is the border with China. This is where the UN Sabres flew cross country with drop tanks to go and kill MiGs. Where they would be found. Sabres flew CAP and fighter sweep missions. I have heard no stories of "Sabre Alley" where MiGs flew down, cross country, to establish air superiority and hunt the "inferior armed" and "poor climb performance" F-86. Say between Gwangjiu and Daegu and the Pacific Ocean. Kimpo and Kunsan are closer to the DMZ. I don't remember hearing any stories about these bases being raided or under sustained harassment after MacArthur did his brilliant end around after the initial NKA push to the coast and performed a re-invasion at Inchon. It's not that hard. I did it quickly again last night. Muzzle velocity, barrel warp, shell life, and oh yeah. I cheated and gave the Sabre 200 lbs more thrust. Haha! :D

 

And yes, the AI is air show perfect especially at the limit. Meanwhile, I'm tumbling around like a clay pigeon for cannon shells in my hyperealistic FM Sabre.


Edited by Squiffy

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It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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I got upset last night after I dl'd the beta update. But of course I realized what had happened. It over wrote my tweaked "inferior sabre" .lua file. and shell.lua.

 

Two things that defintely need to be changed:

 

F-86.lua barrel warp and shot heat equations. Just wrong. Effective range out to about 2000, 2100 meters. A 50 cal can go a half a mile with out much drop.

 

Shell.lua. M2_50 regular and APIT. Muzzle velocity stupid low. Just compare the game arc to gun camera footage. 830??? More like 900m/s is tons better. Also active life range out to 9 units instead of 7. Heck even 8 would be nice.

 

Then you start to see the reality of high muzzle v gun vs. low muzzle v cannon. That's the truth. Physics makes you balance the punch with muzzle velocity. This comes into play with g loading too and is another reason why the Sabre thrived over MiG alley. High g maneuvers, enabled by the g suit and flying stab, also limited the effectiveness of the low muzzle v cannon. MiGs could not pull enough lead to score hits on a high g Sabre. Period. Boots Blesse states this in his Dog Fights interview. When all these parts don't work correctly we have a problem. See my sig. MiG Alley was the rear guard of N Korea. The Yalu river is the border with China. This is where the UN Sabres flew cross country with drop tanks to go and kill MiGs. Where they would be found. Sabres flew CAP and fighter sweep missions. I have heard no stories of "Sabre Alley" where MiGs flew down, cross country, to establish air superiority and hunt the "inferior armed" and "poor climb performance" F-86. Say between Gwangjiu and Daegu and the Pacific Ocean. Kimpo and Kunsan are closer to the DMZ. I don't remember hearing any stories about these bases being raided or under sustained harassment after MacArthur did his brilliant end around after the initial NKA push to the coast and performed a re-invasion at Inchon. It's not that hard. I did it quickly again last night. Muzzle velocity, barrel warp, shell life, and oh yeah. I cheated and gave the Sabre 200 lbs more thrust. Haha! :D

 

And yes, the AI is air show perfect especially at the limit. Meanwhile, I'm tumbling around like a clay pigeon for cannon shells in my hyperealistic FM Sabre.

 

 

May I ask you Sir what is your experience in live shooting 50 cals?

 

 

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=50+cal+bullet+drop&client=firefox-b-d&channel=crow&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=h06DXeQrYcCA-M%253A%252CnJCPQCXC9x3ADM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ78ve771NB9wbk559jmnOn3q3jsQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrhJjprtThAhVEw4sKHYXxA3wQ9QEwAHoECAcQBA#imgrc=h06DXeQrYcCA-M:

 

 

324 division had hands tied by political-driven ROE. Same as USN and USAF later in Vietnam.

 

 

And please stop comparing the Sabre to AI MiG. Want to compare anything - go online.

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So at roughly 1000 yards, the shooters guide shows a 20 ft. bullet drop under 1 normal g. So roughly 1 wingspan of the MiG-15 at 1 g. This will increase of course under g loading.

 

And the Sabre carried M3 not M2 Brownings. It's close, and I appreciate those charts but then there is eyewitness testimony without any specific figures which could be protected for intel and security reasons. The photos are not retouched and do not lie.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3724667&postcount=46

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-86_Sabre#/media/File:F86GunCamKorea.gif

 

I'm not worried so much about the MiG. It's very good, like the rest of this sim. It's just very peculiar that the Sabre would be disadvantaged in the very places it had an historical advantage.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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I forgot to add this, my favorite with my sig quote, 39:36:

 

and this:

 

Best one at 2:07

 

Valuable comments here:

 

"Boots" again at 8:30 above.

 

I've never fired a .50 cal but I have practiced with a .30-06. I'm 2 for 3 deer hunting in Alabama with a .303 lever action. Don't need the muzzle velocity there. I put the bullet where I want it, nice and easy. I missed marksman by rushing one round in AFROTC with .38 revolver. My stupid classmates! ;)

 

edit: I also strongly doubt the Sabres would use the weakest, lowest grain ammunition available when the higher grain, higher velocity ammo could be used in the new high g, high speed jet combat environment. 850 vs. 890 m/s muzzle velocity is a no brainer for me. You can see it clearly in sim, and that's STILL using the flawed M2 BMG modeling with wrong rate of fire, amped up in a fix without regard to the barrel heat dynamics, causing all the shotgun complaints we have seen here. The Sabre is a great module and tons of fun to fly, but in those brief moments when it really counts, air to air, the guns let it down for a number of reasons. The rate of fire bandaid made it worse because it was not thought through. The choice of weak ammunition because a cut and dried easy answer was not available in the chosen sources, despite ample evidence when applied in the sim was frustrating. I understand the amount of work it took to create this ship. But the solution is so close it's disappointing to see it stuck this way. Ah well, I will move on to modern jets too at some point and the Spitfire, but we have learned how close we are to near perfect precision. And the problem lies exactly at the point of one of the Sabres greatest historical strengths. That's what I am on about.


Edited by Squiffy

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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