CVW-11 F-14B Radar Techniques

Some good stuff and nice explanation of the radar loves.

The technique at 17:20 is not quite correct you can't put the nose down 3degrees to get mlc in auto to switch off the notch. You actually need to descend enough to get 3 degrees look up relative to the horizon as the radar is stabilized relative to the horizon. ( At least when not in an AAO mode )

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

You actually need to descend enough to get 3 degrees look up relative to the horizon

Right! Good clarification.....

Spiceman, thank you for your awesome videos! Very appreciated and we use them in our squads "classroom" ;) .

A few questions:

1. STT ranges

At what ranges should it be possible to get a STT lock on the bandit

a) in PD

b) in P

mode?

2. STT advantages/ disadvantages - when to use STT?

What is a good practice to lock the bandit in STT (and which STT)? I am sure there are all kinds of different situations and you have to use the radar in different ways. What I am interested in is a general rule of thumb roughly. Especially for 2 or 3 typical situations:

a) single bandit

b) mutiship bandit flight

c) furball with bandits and friendlies in the mix

My thoughts about it are:

- I usually try to avoid STT to maintain a good situational awareness picture and track of "all" what's going on in the airspace.

- When flying with Jester and I tell him to STT the bandit ahead he usually answeres with "unable" when the bandit is further out than 20 NM. Is that correct? Even in PD-STT?

- What triggers bandits RWR "spike" ? My idea to stay in TWS only is on top of the above, that I wanna avoid that the bandit is becoming super-aware of me. Maybe he is not sure where I am or how far out I am and keeps tracking towards me. But as soon he is getting "spiked" he will usually turn cold or into the notch at least - which is not always what I want him to do because I want to come closer first maybe.

3. Launch range Phoenix

Given a bandit head-on mid-to low altitude:

At what range would you fire the Phoenix at him (rule of thumb)?

I understand you in the video that you usually would fire much further out than 20 NM because you don't wanna have the Phoenixes on the plane still when you are getting within that range.

4. How to after the Phoenix-launch

As a rule of thumb, what would you do usually after the Phoenix launch?

My usual procedure currently is:

- Launch the Phoenix at around 25 NM

- Support the missile with the acft. radar until the bandit is as close as like 15 NM

- Split S and run away from his Aim-120C he most likely fired at me at this point

Thank you in advance!

FYI the missile is completely borked right now it's active off the rail so once it's fired u can forget it. It will hit the 1st thing it sees no matter what range your actual target is.

In reality you should have support it all the way to active which is pretty late.

Tws Auto is also borked so it won't scan around the centroid of the targets ATM but due to point 1 it's also irelavant.

I am afraid until it's fixed it makes most of your questions which are good ones irelavant.

Fwiw I have had locks out to 50 no problem and found Jester to be mostly worthless for sorting .

Atm there is no TD circle in the HUD for tws this may be correct but it's annoying I am used to a TD box for the highlighted track.

Finally the only reason I use STT (apart from sparrows) is to get the pilot a TD box in the HUD .

Hopefully that helped a little while you wait for Spicemans answer.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Windy is spot on, I would just add a couple things...

The two big came changers coming are a working TWS Auto and HB's access to the Phoenix Missile's API so that they can "talk" to the missile in flight. Once we get those two things, you can launch your Phoenix and crank to both slow your downrange travel and put yourself in a better defensive position. With access to the API, the radar will command the missile active and you'll be notified via the flashing TTI indicator on the TID.

As far as launch range, it's really based on the target you're going against. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at 50 NM for a bomber,. For a fighter-sized target, I usually shoot at 30 NM, which provides a decent Pk and gives you a good advantage over a bandit who might be going to shoot at you at 20 NM.

In most section engagements, a good practice is for one of you to shoot in an STT and the other to shoot in TWS. We try to sort at 50 NM, with the Lead taking lead and the Wing taking the trail. The Wing will STT using Jester and both jets will shoot by 30 NM and crank (semi-crank with TWS the way it is). Assess the bandit situation by 10 NM and the jet with the best SA will call engaged and the other will support (assuming no one is defensive).

Windy is spot on, I would just add a couple things...

 

 

 

The two big came changers coming are a working TWS Auto and HB's access to the Phoenix Missile's API so that they can "talk" to the missile in flight. Once we get those two things, you can launch your Phoenix and crank to both slow your downrange travel and put yourself in a better defensive position. With access to the API, the radar will command the missile active and you'll be notified via the flashing TTI indicator on the TID.

 

 

 

As far as launch range, it's really based on the target you're going against. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at 50 NM for a bomber,. For a fighter-sized target, I usually shoot at 30 NM, which provides a decent Pk and gives you a good advantage over a bandit who might be going to shoot at you at 20 NM.

 

 

 

In most section engagements, a good practice is for one of you to shoot in an STT and the other to shoot in TWS. We try to sort at 50 NM, with the Lead taking lead and the Wing taking the trail. The Wing will STT using Jester and both jets will shoot by 30 NM and crank (semi-crank with TWS the way it is). Assess the bandit situation by 10 NM and the jet with the best SA will call engaged and the other will support (assuming no one is defensive).

Its pretty much the only reason I STT to get the pilots eyes on. I assume your last paragraph of tactics was for the missiles being fixed and STT giving a higher PK. Assuming Heatblur get given access.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Right, the STT in combination with the TWS helps to ensure max Pk while also retaining good SA. There's a decent chance an aggressively maneuvering bandit will get himself out of the TWS volume.

The Tomcat does not give you the HUD diamond with only a hooked target, only an STT. The HUD diamond is really tied directly to the antenna position as almost a hardware function.

Right, the STT in combination with the TWS helps to ensure max Pk while also retaining good SA. There's a decent chance an aggressively maneuvering bandit will get himself out of the TWS volume.

 

The Tomcat does not give you the HUD diamond with only a hooked target, only an STT. The HUD diamond is really tied directly to the antenna position as almost a hardware function.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Oh yeah, the entire avionics guts were ripped out and replaced for the D.

"wing will STT the trailer at 30 NM using Jester".

How?

P-STT or PD-STT? Isn't PD-STT as likely to get notched as TWS? If so - what's the reason to use it at all in favor of TWS?

How do you get Jester to STT exactly that target (trailer) instead of the primary thread (lead)?

Do you really get an STT lock at 30 NM with Jester? From my experience he is completely unable to STT all the time until I am inside 20 NM.

"wing will STT the trailer at 30 NM using Jester".

How?

P-STT or PD-STT? Isn't PD-STT as likely to get notched as TWS? If so - what's the reason to use it at all in favor of TWS?

How do you get Jester to STT exactly that target (trailer) instead of the primary thread (lead)?

Do you really get an STT lock at 30 NM with Jester? From my experience he is completely unable to STT all the time until I am inside 20 NM.

Here's an example. I whipped up a quick mission with a section of MIG-29s. I didn't configure any options on them, just a CAP and letting them do what they want to do. The Wing went into a pretty good trail. I used the Jester menu to STT and then "Choose a Specific Target" (CTRL-4). I then chose the one with the farther range.

A big reason to use STT is because these guys are going to start maneuvering. Your own section is also going to start maneuvering. There's a chance you're going to lose at least one of these targets in your TWS volume and hence lose your SA. The Lead, initially in TWS, will want to be locking his target at 20 NM as well.

Thx a lot! Didnt know you can do that with Jester.

Additional question: From my understanding the 154 acts like a Fox-1 until impact and dors not get an "go-active" command at all. But you still think it is the better choice than a TWS launch, correct? Or would you select PD-ACTive in the WCS panel? (given everything is implemented and the missile acts as IRL)

Thx a lot! Didnt know you can do that with Jester.

Additional question: From my understanding the 154 acts like a Fox-1 until impact and dors not get an "go-active" command at all. But you still think it is the better choice than a TWS launch, correct? Or would you select PD-ACTive in the WCS panel? (given everything is implemented and the missile acts as IRL)

Yes... in fact, in general, STT is arguably the better choice against a maneuvering target. Yes, the target will be alerted sooner, but if it's a fighter, they're already plotting and maneuvering against you most likely. There are different views on that out there, but I personally see no downside to launching in PDSTT. TWS is meant for radar SA and launching multiple missiles against multiple targets. It's benefits go away when you're prosecuting a single target.

My problem with that tactic is:

- bandit head-on, has Fox-3s

- if I launch PD-STT I need to guide the missile and keep my radar painting him all the time until impact - if I turn cold, because I fires a Fox-3 at me as well, my missile is trashed

- if I launch in TWS I have a good chance to guide the missile until it becomes active and being still able to turn cold to avoid his Fox-3, still having a good chance my now active missile will get him

Your contention is predicated on the idea that the opponent, knowing you're in the area, won't shoot, or even maneuver in accordance with denying you a positional advantage, because he doesn't have an active signal.

That's horrible logic.

They know you're there. They're either maneuvering to deny, operating in a fashion dependent on a mission requirement, or just plain stupid. Shooting in TWS doesn't keep them stupid, it simply affirms they were if the first round hits.

Thanks for the video @IceFire ! Also interesting for people not flying the F-14. :thumbup:

My problem with that tactic is:

- bandit head-on, has Fox-3s

- if I launch PD-STT I need to guide the missile and keep my radar painting him all the time until impact - if I turn cold, because I fires a Fox-3 at me as well, my missile is trashed

- if I launch in TWS I have a good chance to guide the missile until it becomes active and being still able to turn cold to avoid his Fox-3, still having a good chance my now active missile will get him

However IRL and in game the Rsep ( distance between you and the target at missile intercept can be enormous). The obvious thing to do is to fire the missile and Run away don't close at all and see if you get a hit especially as the missile is active off the rail. If I dont want to die I will never close within Aim120 kill zone as I don't need to, fire at the right range and I may get lucky and will never die.

This is tedious at the best of times and why personally I prefer a semi active war as you have to close with the target and often end up in a visual fight.

At the end of the day it's a game if you die occasionally does it really matter if you had fun. I was RIO vs a buddy on our training server , he defeated 6 Aim 154 in a row one a dual launch and he defeated the second with a last ditch vertical and he killed us a lot with a late Super 530 missile. His radar work was excellent and we closed with him it was good trg for all.

For real I would never have closed within his kill zone but that would have been boring.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

@lunaticfrinch & @WindyTX:

I am all with you. My discussion with Spiceman is all based on that exactly same base. The problem of a shot with the Aim-154 is, that it is not active at all and never becomes active when I shoot it out of a PD-STT lock if I understand the manual correctly:

" PD STT SARH In pulse doppler STT the AIM-54 uses SARH all the way to the target receiving guidance commands at a greater rate than in TWS and also continous spotlighting of the target because of the STT mode being used. This increases the effective range of the AIM-54 seeker slightly."

That is why I would prefer to fire it from TWS, because then it will become an active Fox-3 when commanded active.

After a PD-STT-shot it will never ever hit the target because I have to turn defensive at some point when I am facing a bandit that has Fox-3s too. As soon as I turn away my radar doesn't illuminate him anymore, my missile doen't go active (because shot out of PD-STT) and is trashed.

Scratch all my thoughts - I missed an important part in the manual (see pic):

After a PD-STT-shot it will never ever hit the target because I have to turn defensive at some point when I am facing a bandit that has Fox-3s too. As soon as I turn away my radar doesn't illuminate him anymore, my missile doen't go active (because shot out of PD-STT) and is trashed.

Use the Phoenix' range to your advantage... shoot at 40-50 NM and it will hit him before he ever has the chance to command his missile active. It's pretty doubtful he'll be content to stare in the face of your PTT in the first place, and there's a good chance he'll be too busy maneuvering to get a shot off at you. I'll shoot a couple videos of what I would do and post them up.

Scratch all my thoughts - I missed an important part in the manual (see pic):

That's kind of last ditch, and you really shouldn't still be carrying your Phoenix with a bandit at 10 NM. In the real world that was a great option for the ROE most guys were under, which was return fire or VID required. In the world we live in with DCS, typically you're Phoenix should be long gone by the time you close within 10 NM.

Use the Phoenix' range to your advantage... shoot at 40-50 NM and it will hit him before he ever has the chance to command his missile active. It's pretty doubtful he'll be content to stare in the face of your PTT in the first place, and there's a good chance he'll be too busy maneuvering to get a shot off at you. I'll shoot a couple videos of what I would do and post them up.

I would like feedback on my strategy with my pilot. I wonder if we are we doing anything wrong:

What my pilot and I have been doing is we will try to be co-alt or slightly under the bandit (at greater than 20 miles) and I will lock on TWS while keeping track of other targets while in TWS. This has saved us numerours times when another datalink or radar contact pops up closer than the bandit we're focusing on.

We will only fire on up to two targets at most if necessary just to keep one bandit off our backs while focusing on one target. If we can, we will close on the one primary target and then PD-STT him, put him in the TCS and continue until we see the explosion or the missile timer expire with no kill.

I find this is an optimal combination of stealth (they do not know we launched a missile but I am not sure if non-F-14 aircraft can see missiles on their datalink/radar as we do), and the reliable PD-STT after makes the missile likelier to hit while giving us TCS. I've tried using TCS independently but it does not seem to lock well at long range without the radar.

For anything less than or equal to 20 nm, I will just use PD-STT right away, and specifically at les than 15 miles, it's all pilot with PAL/AUTO ACQ modes.

That's a fine strategy. In the future, when HB can talk to the missile in flight, you'll know when the Phoenix has gone active and that would be the perfect time to PTT your primary target to get a visual status via the TCS and to have him locked for any follow-up shots. If he's dead, hand the radar off to the pilot (dogfight modes) and get your eyes up and out as well to find the second guy.

Sorry overlapped with Spicemans answer but my thoughts fwiw which are kinda similar to Spicemans.

At the moment as mentioned earlier the missile is active off the rail. This makes following it in irelavant you are just increasing your own risk.

Spicemans shot at 40 to 50 nm is optimising the Rsep and in real life with a properly modelled missile you will have either shot or missed before even getting inside the targets kill range. You can set up a grinder with a wingman and never let anything inside the tgts kill zone especially with the link.

Your 20 nm shots are not optimising the missiles capability and following it in puts you at risk.

However it's way more fun good at practicing your crew co operation and your radar work rather similar to the profile I do on our training server as you get way more training out of it. Keeping the radar on a target that is manouvering inside 20 nm is way more work if you are in tws manual. Or even working in pulse after a tgt beams you and you are not below him enough. You just need to bear in mind that these are high risk manouvers that in reality you may not want to do.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk