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Hornet update?


Ragnar65

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... and that is not how it works in DCS.

 

How is it different?

 

If we assume the ground crew has loaded the codes (like we assume they've done 100 other things to prepare your aircraft for flight), then all you have to do is turn it on. That's the only thing not simulated yet.

 

I've only used DCS IFF in the F15C, but it tells me when I've locked up a friendly. It doesn't tell me when it's an enemy, it just tells me it's not a confirmed friendly. How is this different from reality?

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Sandman I'm not hating, I want IFF as much as the next person. But going on the forum almost demanding it from ED isn't the way to go. Maybe it's in in today's update, who knows, but I think the team's priorities right now is fixing current systems before implementing new ones. That's all.

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How is it different?

 

If we assume the ground crew has loaded the codes (like we assume they've done 100 other things to prepare your aircraft for flight), then all you have to do is turn it on. That's the only thing not simulated yet.

 

I've only used DCS IFF in the F15C, but it tells me when I've locked up a friendly. It doesn't tell me when it's an enemy, it just tells me it's not a confirmed friendly. How is this different from reality?

The problem is, that the DCS IFF doesn't care about IFF transponders at all. You can positively interrogate aircraft that have their IFF transponders turned off as well as aircraft that have incompatible IFF transponders or even no IFF transponders at all (e.g. WW2 aircraft). These issues are on a much more basic level than correct codes.

I wrote about that in more depth here a few years ago (nothing has changed yet): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161240

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Sandman I'm not hating, I want IFF as much as the next person. But going on the forum almost demanding it from ED isn't the way to go. Maybe it's in in today's update, who knows, but I think the team's priorities right now is fixing current systems before implementing new ones. That's all.

 

I never demanded anything. I'm waiting patiently, just like everyone else.

 

I chimed in because people call it "gamey" and "unrealistic," when it's not.

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How is it different?

 

If we assume the ground crew has loaded the codes (like we assume they've done 100 other things to prepare your aircraft for flight), then all you have to do is turn it on. That's the only thing not simulated yet.

 

If I fly the mirage with IFF = Off (or maybe IFF is damaged) it will still show clients in my coalition that I am friendly.

 

What follows is that contacts not shown as friendly are 100% hostile. And that is not as it works in real life.

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I never demanded anything. I'm waiting patiently, just like everyone else.

 

I chimed in because people call it "gamey" and "unrealistic," when it's not.

I know, I'm not saying you did.. I'm talking about other people.

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The problem is, that the DCS IFF doesn't care about IFF transponders at all. You can positively interrogate aircraft that have their IFF transponders turned off as well as aircraft that have incompatible IFF transponders or even no IFF transponders at all (e.g. WW2 aircraft). These issues are on a much more basic level than correct codes.

I wrote about that in more depth here a few years ago (nothing has changed yet): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161240

 

That's a fair statement - I've never tried against a WW2 bird.

 

I can't speak for the Red side, but for modern jets most western nations use the Mode 4/5 standard. In alot of cases, if a coalition member isn't capable of utilizing one of these modes, they simply aren't allowed in the airspace.

 

The only point I'm trying to get across is that IFF is not as "gamey" as some argue. Sure there are bugs / imperfections (like you've identified), but when an F18 locks up another F18 or F15, the system works pretty close to the real thing.

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If I fly the mirage with IFF = Off (or maybe IFF is damaged) it will still show clients in my coalition that I am friendly.

 

What follows is that contacts not shown as friendly are 100% hostile. And that is not as it works in real life.

 

Also, as far as I'm aware IFF is only used above friendly territory to avoid any (traceable) unwanted emissions. Build SA with AWACS, that's what they're there for :thumbup:


Edited by TwanV
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  • ED Team

We will first implement a simplified IFF system because it's something we can do in the near term. We hoped to have it available this week, but there was a holiday in Russia this week and it moved our schedule back a bit. Also, our avionics and flight model team has been working crazy hours for the past two months and they need a break.

 

Later, we hope to implement a much more realistic IFF system, but that will take much more time. Not just because of the rather complex avionics changes and additions (much more complex than most of you appreciate), but also because it will need to involve a rather extensive change to the AI.

 

Thanks

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If I fly the mirage with IFF = Off (or maybe IFF is damaged) it will still show clients in my coalition that I am friendly.

 

What follows is that contacts not shown as friendly are 100% hostile. And that is not as it works in real life.

 

And I've already identified the off / damaged scenario as unrealistic, but this isn't game breaking.

 

It does, however, allow people to game the system - with no civilian aircraft to worry about and only 2 coalitions, people don't have to utilize the proper procedures when an IFF interrogation is returned negative. But that's a people problem, not a problem with DCS.

 

Aside from the off / damaged / no transponder scenario, which probably will be corrected as we move out of EA, the system is modeled fairly realistically.

 

As I've now clearly dragged this thread off topic, I'm done :)


Edited by Sandman1330

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We will first implement a simplified IFF system because it's something we can do in the near term. We hoped to have it available this week, but there was a holiday in Russia this week and it moved our schedule back a bit. Also, our avionics and flight model team has been working crazy hours for the past two months and they need a break.

 

Later, we hope to implement a much more realistic IFF system, but that will take much more time. Not just because of the rather complex avionics changes and additions (much more complex than most of you appreciate), but also because it will need to involve a rather extensive change to the AI.

 

Thanks

 

Thanks Wags, it seems like a good plan for the short/medium term.

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We will first implement a simplified IFF system because it's something we can do in the near term. We hoped to have it available this week, but there was a holiday in Russia this week and it moved our schedule back a bit. Also, our avionics and flight model team has been working crazy hours for the past two months and they need a break.

 

Later, we hope to implement a much more realistic IFF system, but that will take much more time. Not just because of the rather complex avionics changes and additions (much more complex than most of you appreciate), but also because it will need to involve a rather extensive change to the AI.

 

Thanks

 

As always, thanks for the updates. All the best for the team and their well-being and peace of mind is much more important than what I wish for a game, their work is very appreciated! :thumbup:

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And I've already identified the off / damaged scenario as unrealistic, but this isn't game breaking.

 

It does, however, allow people to game the system - with no civilian aircraft to worry about and only 2 coalitions, people don't have to utilize the proper procedures when an IFF interrogation is returned negative. But that's a people problem, not a problem with DCS.

 

 

You say all the right things but come to the wrong conclusion, how is that a people problem? It's a system problem.

A people problem would be DCS having a realistic IFF simulation but people ignoring it and shooting negative returns without care.

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And I've already identified the off / damaged scenario as unrealistic, but this isn't game breaking.

 

It does, however, allow people to game the system - with no civilian aircraft to worry about and only 2 coalitions, people don't have to utilize the proper procedures when an IFF interrogation is returned negative. But that's a people problem, not a problem with DCS.

 

Aside from the off / damaged / no transponder scenario, which probably will be corrected as we move out of EA, the system is modeled fairly realistically.

 

As I've now clearly dragged this thread off topic, I'm done :)

 

It is a problem of DCS because in DCS a negative response means contact is hostile which is not what it means in real life. Yes you can still follow your procedures but then we can also play with labels on full and still follow our procedures. ;)

 

That people heavily requested the FC3 Iff for the F18 and also for the DCS Mirage shows IMO that at least on PvP servers most clients are in "game mode". ( i am not against game mode but it sould be separated )

 

I am not sure if we well get a better IFF when EA is over. It sounds more like "dedicated server two weeks" . :noexpression:

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It is a problem of DCS because in DCS a negative response means contact is hostile which is not what it means in real life. Yes you can still follow your procedures but then we can also play with labels on full and still follow our procedures. ;)

 

That people heavily requested the FC3 Iff for the F18 and also for the DCS Mirage shows IMO that at least on PvP servers most clients are in "game mode". ( i am not against game mode but it sould be separated )

 

I am not sure if we well get a better IFF when EA is over. It sounds more like "dedicated server two weeks" . :noexpression:

 

 

Just because people want IFF for the Hornet as is the case for all other modern jets doesn't mean they would be opposed to a realistic system.

It is just all we have right now, and as you can see above from Wags, it will take ED quite some time to implement a realistic system. So you would want no IFF at all for the Hornet until, some day in the distant future, we have proper IFF in DCS?

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"DCS World is the main public build, it has nothing to do with being stable" -Bignewy

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It is a problem of DCS because in DCS a negative response means contact is hostile which is not what it means in real life. Yes you can still follow your procedures but then we can also play with labels on full and still follow our procedures. ;)

 

That people heavily requested the FC3 Iff for the F18 and also for the DCS Mirage shows IMO that at least on PvP servers most clients are in "game mode". ( i am not against game mode but it sould be separated )

 

I am not sure if we well get a better IFF when EA is over. It sounds more like "dedicated server two weeks" . :noexpression:

 

I'm talking about the system modelling. The problems regarding lack of civilian aircraft, third coalitions, etc have nothing to do with the modelling of the IFF system.

 

Yes, the IFF is now simplified - in that it doesn't require the transponder to be turned on. The ability for people to "game" the system comes from the lack of any civilian / third coalition, which is not a problem related to how the IFF is implemented.

 

The point I was trying to make is that even a simplified IFF is not that unrealistic - what I agree is unrealistic is how people can use that system, within the constraints of DCS' limitations (no third coalition / civilians) to come to the conclusion that a negative return must be enemy.

 

So, how do I use the simplified IFF? I lock a bogey, it returns a valid IFF - it's friendly, I move on. This is realistic. If it does not return a valid IFF, because of other DCS limitations, I have a reasonable certainty he is enemy - but it's not because of how IFF is implemented, but rather due to the other DCS limitations.

 

That being said, in a WW3 air war, the civilian and even third coalition is probably not going to exist, so in certain total war scenarios, the lack of a valid IFF return might be enough PID to engage...

 

Anyway, as I said earlier I shouldn't have dragged this off topic, so I'd be happy to continue the debate in the proper thread... :D

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Dudes.. simplified IFF is a PLACEHOLDER. And a good thing for multiplayer. Wags has stated they hope to implement a much more realistic IFF system. The lack of it has friends of mine not using it in MP for the time being.

 

Quit nitpicking for the love of god. This is 3 patches since they released the module not all that long ago and it's Early Access. The goodies will come. They're doing good work. Give them some credit. We should be encouraging the development of this module not complaining about what they haven't had time to address yet. I'm not trying to moderate, and I'm not saying you don't have the right to talk about what you'd like to see, but patience is a virtue here. If you come across a bug or problem post it in the bugs forum, but for the time being - there's a lot to be happy/excited about with what's happened, happening, and will happen in the future in this mod IMO.


Edited by Headwarp
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